Dao Elemental Schema Poll

[Viatos]

More fun than shadow bhall priests would be a sect of priests that worship Bridget and await the day she over throws bhall. They could give a nice bonus from freeing her.

This had occurred to me. Something like Letum Frigus for the Illians, probably.

I think dimensional mana would be a more fun interpretation of void.

Oh yeah. Dimensional. The Sphere directly associated with interconnection and empty spaces, underused and with tons of untapped lore potential given Ceridwen's delicious brand of evil. Let me just, uh...nobody saw that stuff about Mind and Spirit, okay? Okay.

I feel like fire mana gets over used(along with air) because the current spells are BETTER than the other elemental spheres(ice maybe being the exception).

Well, out of the elemental four, sure...but Air is close enough to even to call it quits (collateral damage vs. multiple targets and Lightning Elementals) and you can't really kick Air too, so meh. Air's level 1 is super-niche (even with the new spell) but then again, so is Blaze.

EDIT: If people are really opposed to Fire, it could be switched out for Dimensional in the Terrestial scheme, providing a no-Fire for setup. I'll add that in italics and if that changes any votes, post it. I'll keep track.

 

[dunedainjedi]

Lol. I love how I decide Dimensional was a dumb idea, only to check back three seconds later to find a "hey that sounds good post." Anyway, I'd love to help create lore and backstory if you need it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Frankly: The Dao are slated to be imported. However, we have no plans to extensively modify them; They pretty much already use the Japanese system, so it will be kept to that (had forgotten they had void already). They will work much as they do in Orbis.

 

[Viatos]

They pretty much already use the Japanese system.

Last I checked they use the Chinese system, with Nature standing in for Wood, despite there being no wood elementals (they get it from their Palace).

Frankly: The Dao are slated to be imported. They pretty much already use the Japanese system, so it will be kept to that (had forgotten they had void already). They will work much as they do in Orbis.

Race you for it. Anybody got a good name for an elemental-summoning generically East Asian civilization (with some randomized cultural accents for fun)?

 

[Valkrionn]

Last I checked they use the Chinese system, with Nature standing in for Wood, despite there being no wood elementals (they get it from their Palace).

Just checked the python for spawning them... Looks like Air, Earth, Fire, and Water. We'd be adding Void.

Race you for it. Anybody got a good name for an elemental-summoning generically East Asian civilization (with some randomized cultural accents for fun)?

Feel free... Though I'd rather see this one come back. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=347902

 

[Calavente]

I'd rather have terrestrial or eastern classical (voted eastern).
with eastern I'd miss earth... but on the other hand, having affinity for iron/copper could change the way we think.
with terrestrial... I like it a lot... but I think there should at least be a 4th element representing either life or willpower/intelligence (animals/civilisations/gods-demons-angels) : creation or life or nature or mind...Etc

As I understood the concept in Orbis, they were more a mish-mash of easterner, tao -chinese and the art came after. IIRC, the japanese mythologie is not really into elementals and nature, but moslty about Mikos and demons, smaller, bigger...etc.

 

[Opera]

Mazatl and Cualli had distinct lore. Dao is "the Asian civ of Disciple-units and Elementals"; that'll still fit. If anybody has a better name, of course, go for it, but I don't think it's strictly necessary. Suggestions?

They're an Eastern civ, why is the poll needed?

 

[Calavente]

I think you could go with eastern + "fire is an element but it is bad, unstable and dangerous, don't touch it"

 

[Iskar Jarak]

I say have a Terry Pratchett schema: Earth, Air, fire, water, and the fifth element which is surprise.

 

[Viatos]

Though I'd rather see this one come back. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=347902

Some sneaky types update progress notes without actually bumping, I hear, if progress is too unstable to benefit from the hard work in critique by others. I actually have better concentration when I can switch back and forth between things whenever I run out of inspiration for one.

They're an Eastern civ, why is the poll needed?

I actually dislike when people take real-world flavors and drop them straight into fantasy because they're internally consistent, without considering the wider world. Their artstyle is Eastern, and they contain influences from some East Asian cultures - doesn't mean that in Erebus they'd go whole hog with it.

 

[Oranos]

I'm going to vote for dimensional mana being the replacement for void, but it seems that choice is already up there. Greek classical comes to mind.

 

[Mikka]

Frankly: The Dao are slated to be imported. However, we have no plans to extensively modify them; They pretty much already use the Japanese system, so it will be kept to that (had forgotten they had void already). They will work much as they do in Orbis.

They actually don't really have Void in the last version I played, but there was a long talk about it on the Orbis forums that they should. I don't know if dimensional is the best fit for a Void element (I think Mind still fits the best), but I think it could work with a bit of playing: there is a lot of lore available. I would avoid Metamagic, though.


...I admit that I was wrong: the word Dao is, indeed, a Chinese concept. However, I think some people need to go back to their Japanese mythology. The biggest individual deals about the civilization are the priests as the magic casters (no pure arcane line) and the elementals who voluntarily join the civilization, in my humble opinion. Both of those, but particularly the first, are very Japanese concepts. If you go back through Japanese mythology, you will find few 'mages' (when spells are cast, it's done by descendants of the gods, the kami, and priest/ess's (...and not anywhere near as many miko's as anime would have you think)- the most magicy things get is a Buddhist Monk, which often are Chinese tales that have been absorbed as new Japanese tales): this is unlike Indian or Chinese mythology, where you could fill pages after pages of names of mystics.

That leads to the second point: the elementals and Dao living together in voluntary harmony seems like a Shinto concept more then anything. There's no binding involved, which seems to always happen in the Chinese tales when elementals are needed.

Also. China is not 'Asia' anymore then Russia is Europe or the United States of America. The repeated use of 'Eastern/Asian' Elements to speak of Chinese (and Korean) elements seems rather silly at this point. The spoken of elements are Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water. India uses Void, Water, Earth, Fire, Air. Japan uses Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Void. Tibet tends to use Water, Earth, Fire, Air, Space, as does Buddhism. (The Void/Space/Aether/Heaven/Sky each philosophy uses often have a lot in common, but tend to be seen as different all the same to each philosophy, just like Air and Wind aren't always the same thing).

 

[Viatos]

However, I think some people need to go back to their Japanese mythology.

Meh. The line between holy man and magician is pretty thin wherever you look, and I'd disagree that the Dao fit any better into Shinto then anywhere else. Shinto spirits don't really work that way, and again if you have lore for the Dao I'd love to see it, but the relationship they have with their elementals is less then clear. Harnessing natural forces? Harmonizing with them? Entreating them? Enslaving them? Manifesting human will through elemental avatar-bodies? Never spelled out AFAIK.

I'd disagree that it's useful to specialize the terminology to Chinese or Japanese or whatever. There is opportunity here to draw from everywhere, and there's no need to force conceptual limits based on RL delineations.

 

[Calavente]

Meh. The line between holy man and magician is pretty thin wherever you look, and I'd disagree that the Dao fit any better into Shinto then anywhere else. Shinto spirits don't really work that way, and again if you have lore for the Dao I'd love to see it, but the relationship they have with their elementals is less then clear. Harnessing natural forces? Harmonizing with them? Entreating them? Enslaving them? Manifesting human will through elemental avatar-bodies? Never spelled out AFAIK.

I'd disagree that it's useful to specialize the terminology to Chinese or Japanese or whatever. There is opportunity here to draw from everywhere, and there's no need to force conceptual limits based on RL delineations.

my opinion too. Dao, being on Erebus have to be not clearly linked to 1 real civilization. The malakim are a mix of the flavor of many desert civs, bedouins, egytpians, Tyr...Etc
On the other hand, for japanese : I think there are much more kamis, youkais (greater demons ,lesser demons) (maybe linked to nature and to the elements.. a real animist religion) than there are "elementals". Mostly it will be the youkai/kami of said spring or of said wood, or of said shrine. But those are still gods/demons and not elementals.
It's as if you said that greek mythology was "an elementalist religion" as zeus is the thunder, poseidon is the sea, ...Etc. They are not elementals, they are gods/nyades... that take charge/live in/live of an element. There is a difference.

all civilisations have a lisiting of elements. It doesn't means that the elements have any mythological aspect.

 

[Valkrionn]

There's no real intent for the Dao to be Japanese. They are just generically Eastern.

The reason I prefer the Japanese elements for it is because that is closest to the Orbis implementation.

 

[Segolenus]

The problem with using the Chinese elements is that they do not include air. The Chinese elements are Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, and Earth. And since much of Orbis Dao revolves around air (e.g. their hero), using the Chinese elements would mean that the entire civ would have to be redesigned.

Furthermore, metal (whatever that is) and wood/nature aren't regarded as elements in Erebus. The Dao are meant to have an elemental focus, hence the Elementalist unit, and the opposition between air/earth shrines and fire/water shrines. There's nothing wrong with having a head start on the Tower of Elements since that is their flavor. Using the Chinese elements, as cool as it would be, would screw this elemental flavor up. (And how would you deal with oppositions between five elements?)

I would prefer the Dao to be imported as close to their original form as possible. Hence, Greek elements.

(But I wouldn't object to another eastern civ (or three) using a different mash-up of "eastern" concepts.)

 

[Viatos]

The problem with using the Chinese elements is that they do not include air. The Chinese elements are Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, and Earth. And since much of Orbis Dao revolves around air (e.g. their hero), using the Chinese elements would mean that the entire civ would have to be redesigned.

Which would not be a bad thing, since like you say in a second the Dao are meant to be the elementalist civ. Instead, they are the air elementalist civ.

Furthermore, metal (whatever that is) and wood/nature aren't regarded as elements in Erebus. The Dao are meant to have an elemental focus, hence the Elementalist unit, and the opposition between air/earth shrines and fire/water shrines. There's nothing wrong with having a head start on the Tower of Elements since that is their flavor. Using the Chinese elements, as cool as it would be, would screw this elemental flavor up. (And how would you deal with oppositions between five elements?)

Metal is just Earth. Nature is a Sphere in Erebus, which is close enough as makes no difference. You can handle oppositions the way Chinese occultism does, they have a chart and everything to show relationships. Each element generates one element, defeats one element, and is defeated by one element.

 

[Torugu]

(And how would you deal with oppositions between five elements?)

Just for the record: IIRC the Chinese elements form a kind of circle, Metal chops Wood, Wood ... drains Water? I'm not sure about the specifics and to lazy to ask Wikipedia.

Edit: Ninja'ed. And in a far more informative way.

 

[Segolenus]

Metal is just Earth. Nature is a Sphere in Erebus, which is close enough as makes no difference. You can handle oppositions the way Chinese occultism does, they have a chart and everything to show relationships. Each element generates one element, defeats one element, and is defeated by one element.

...But Earth is already an element. Assuming you don't want to somehow introduce two distinct types of earth elementals, there is only Water, Fire, Nature, and Earth. This is basically replacing air with nature, which is not a big difference. And what exactly would a "nature elemental" be? (Treants?) The circle of elements also sounds harder to code than a binary opposition.

Personally, I would rather rebalance the elementals around the original system than design a new system that is completely off-kilter compared to the rest of Erebus. Every other civ regards the elements as being the Greek ones, so why should this one be any different? (Plus, the air focus of the Dao won't be as much of a problem any more if the Palatinate is also imported. They have a water focus.)

 

[Valkrionn]

Which would not be a bad thing, since like you say in a second the Dao are meant to be the elementalist civ. Instead, they are the air elementalist civ.

Far better IMO to rebalance, then redesign. I intend to keep them close to Ahwaric's implementation... It's the right way to do it, as they are his creation.

...But Earth is already an element. Assuming you don't want to somehow introduce two distinct types of earth elementals, there is only Water, Fire, Nature, and Earth. This is basically replacing air with nature, which is not a big difference. And what exactly would a "nature elemental" be? (Treants?) The circle of elements also sounds harder to code than a binary opposition.

Personally, I would rather rebalance the elementals around the original system than design a new system that is completely off-kilter compared to the rest of Erebus. Every other civ regards the elements as being the Greek ones, so why should this one be any different? (Plus, the air focus of the Dao won't be as much of a problem any more if the Palatinate is also imported. They have a water focus.)

Agreed, rebalance rather than redesign. I do intend to add Void (as I like it), but that's basically adding a central element, not adding a fifth; The others oppose each as normal.

As for the Palatinate... There are zero plans to import them. They are too heavily guild-centric, and our guilds will not function the way Orbis guilds do. Not even close, in fact. Therefore, the civ doesn't work in RifE.