Darius' Perpetual Golden Age

slobberinbear

Ursine Skald
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,657
Location
Foraging in your trashcan
The title says it all. I'm going to try a game here where the objective, besides winning, is to stretch out one of Darius' Golden Ages as long as possible.

The settings are Continents/King/Standard speed.

Here is the start:

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198030728381/screenshots/

Not a good start, but what the heck. The location in the subartic zone has pretty poor food output but nice hammer and gold potential. Lots of bad tiles in the workable area. Here's hoping there are hidden strategic resources in there.

Here are my thoughts on a variety of topics:

Wonders: Chichen Itza, Taj Mahal are obviously key.

Policies: Piety has a ton of happiness and GA-related goodness. Patronage will allow the alliance of multiple cultural and martime city-states and has some happiness benefits. Liberty fosters early expansion and also has a free GA policy. Tradition, Freedom, and Order also seem to have synergy with the objective. I am thinking I need to get into Piety ASAP, but I am open to suggestions on whether and how to do it.

Early Tech: Calendar and Trapping are on the list, obviously. Medium-term, Currency will help multiply my capital's strong gold output, Civil Service enables Chichen Itza, and Printing Press unlocks Taj Mahal. Theology will allow a very nice Monastery for +9 culture.

Early, I am thinking Pottery > AH > Trapping > Calendar.

Early Build: Scout > Monument > Granary > Worker, assuming I take Liberty and go REXing to grab happiness resources. If I take Tradition instead, I would instead build Scout > Worker > Granary and get the free monument from Legalism.

EDIT: Meritocracy > Great Library > Civil Service is very tempting, followed by research agreements to beeline Printing Press ...

Get your comments in please. I will play and post the first round tonight.

PS:
Spoiler :
I am having trouble with screenshots in Civ V ... can't find 'em, when I take 'em with f12, I quickload to another game. This screenie is posted to Steam but I'm an old photobucket user.
 

Attachments

I've played many a game as Darius because of the golden ages. Another thing about Darius to take advantage of is early exploration. Your units get an extra movement point during the golden ages which is very usefull when you are still uncovering the map fog.
 
really, if you call this start "bad" no wonder why I have touble replicating some of the Deity strategies on this boards.

my average starting position is way worse then your bad.
 
Good luck!! my best was 146 turns.

Wow. I'll see what I can do.

really, if you call this start "bad" no wonder why I have touble replicating some of the Deity strategies on this boards.

my average starting position is way worse then your bad.

I didn't say "bad," just not good. It has nice commerce and hammer output but the low food production and lots of unworkable/bad tiles means it is not a powerhouse capital. It's not horrible, and I'm going to go with it, but it is not good.
 
Actually bear, that's pretty good considering you're looking at Golden Age manipulation. Those riverside hills with Civil Service are going to be monster tiles during your big GA. Two early happy resources means you'll be able to launch an initial GA from happiness to kick start your empire building, and that river looks like it'll hold a few other cities, commeeerrrrrcceeeeeeee. Plains ain't horrible because those hammers will be multiplied.
 
Actually bear, that's pretty good considering you're looking at Golden Age manipulation. Those riverside hills with Civil Service are going to be monster tiles during your big GA. Two early happy resources means you'll be able to launch an initial GA from happiness to kick start your empire building, and that river looks like it'll hold a few other cities, commeeerrrrrcceeeeeeee. Plains ain't horrible because those hammers will be multiplied.

I presume you recommend farming the riverside hills then, for that reason? I am a habitual hill miner; need to break that habit when appropriate.

And yeah, the 3 x wine means lots of Monastery culture and trade bait.

EDIT: So is the thinking to get a quick early GA, then really load up for the really long second GA?
 
That is a very strong OCC Culture start. If you do that: get a Worker from Citizenship, steal one from a city-state nearby, and improve all the tiles. Then you can alternate between :c5food: for growth and big :c5production: when the important builds become available. If there are enough Maritimes, you won't need to farm the riverside Hills.

You can also REX that start if you wish. Doing that is probably smarter if you just want a long GA, because you can keep the first :c5happy: GA at bay via expansion and growth until you're ready to set off the bomb.

Meritocracy GE probably goes on Chichen Itza if you burn it on an early Wonder. Use a Research Agreement to get early Civil Service.
 
Wonders: Chichen Itza, Taj Mahal are obviously key.

Policies: ...

Theology will allow a very nice Monastery for +9 culture.
...
Early Build: Scout > Monument > Granary > Worker, assuming I take Liberty and go REXing to grab happiness resources. If I take Tradition instead, I would instead build Scout > Worker > Granary and get the free monument from Legalism.

EDIT: Meritocracy > Great Library > Civil Service is very tempting, followed by research agreements to beeline Printing Press ...

if the goal is pure golden age generation you're going to want to spawn as many great people as possible, and just use them all to extend the golden age. i imagine it may be possible to have a continuous golden age from the turn after you complete chichen to the turn you complete a cultural victory.

monastery is only +5 unless you have an incense hidden around there, in which case it is +7. it doesn't gain for wine/incense beyond the first.

if i were trying to have a single continuous golden age i would do the following:

stick with one city (and eventually puppets)
policy order tradition, liberty, citizenship, meritocracy for ge and build manufactory, aristocracy
build order scout, monument, granary, library, nc
tech order: pottery-writing-calendar-philosophy

you're going to want to maximize great person generation, to that end you'll want to build hagia sophia, porcelain tower, louvre, brandenburg gate, and many other wonders, you'll want to start a war with a nearby CS to steal their worker, and use them to level up your initial warrior / get great generals,
time your initial happiness golden age for after chichen completes, which may be difficult at this lower difficulty
i'd go for a culture victory and you'll want tradition, liberty, patronage, freedom, and piety in that order. you'll want to get to educated elite as soon as possible for the gps, then freedom branch left then right,
at some point you'll want to start a fight with your neighbor for more great general generation.
 
I've done quite a bit of this and love the strategy. You can get almost a perpetual golden age going if you do Chichen Itza combined with Persia. IMO, Chichen Itza is the most important world wonder in the game, and the only one that will make me think about starting over if I miss it (really hate missing Pyramids too)

Add in Taj Mahal, the Louvre (another 25 or so Golden Age turns), and do a little fighting for a couple Great Generals and it gets ridiculous. I've had some times where about 90 of 100 turns were golden age, and never have come out of it in a position where I wasn't going to win (king/emp level)

I also second the comments on the "bad" starting position - I play Legendary Start in almost every game and this would be a good starting position even under those rules. The only thing to really be desired is marble.
 
monastery is only +5 unless you have an incense hidden around there, in which case it is +7. it doesn't gain for wine/incense beyond the first.

I happen to have a screenie from the T233 game in G-Major I. What you are saying cannot possibly be right. The math just doesn't add up. I count:

3 from the Temple
3 from the Artist
8 from Stonehenge
1 from NC
1 from Palace
2 from Monument
3 from Tradition
1 from Liberty

Add all that up and it's 22 Culture per turn, leaving 9 for the Monastery. Sukhotai is sitting on an Incense tile, so we also see that you get the +2 per source of Wine or Incense even if you settled it.
 

Attachments

  • monasterycalc.jpg
    monasterycalc.jpg
    248.9 KB · Views: 660
I happen to have a screenie from the T233 game in G-Major I. What you are saying cannot possibly be right.

wow. did that change last patch? i could have sworn it worked the way i described prior to the last patch, but i haven't actively checked since.
 
I'm going to play a few turns, see where things stand when the first few builds complete and/or my first policy choice comes up, and post. Assuming I don't find a culture ruin, that's 25 turns. If I get the sense that I have room to REX, I'll build scout/monument/granary; if not, scout/worker/granary.
 
and do a little fighting for a couple Great Generals and it gets ridiculous.

^this. DoW early, and stay in a perpetual war (with a city state or civ). I don't know how the scaling changes on normal speed compared with marathon, but in marathon, farming XP at a couple sites will typically net 3 GGs to cash in by the time you get Chichen Itza, depending on the research path you take.

This is part of the reason I favour early war.

In the worst case ( Diety), you fight a retreating battle with a warrior and some support, killing their units as they're produced (forcing the AI to spend more production on units), gain XP for your units (making them more powerful), gain XP for GGs (boosting production and income), and occassionally get a free worker.

In the best case (anything Emperor or below), you can totally lock down a neighbour you are not yet able to kill, while boosting your strength as above until you can. Or, since you are more in it for Golden Ages than conquest, just pick one neighbour to farm for XP and keep weak in perpetuity. A single DoW without conquest won't really affect your diplomacy - it's the conquest that causes the big diplo hit.
 
wow. did that change last patch? i could have sworn it worked the way i described prior to the last patch, but i haven't actively checked since.

I think they stealth changed it in the last patch. I want to say that the change was in the pre-patch notes, but I couldn't find it in the sticky patch note thread over at 2K.
 
Welcome back, my son. I've missed you. Have the men begun setting up the encampment?

Yes, father.

Good. This is lush, fertile land. I think we can make a home here.

I agree. There's enough wine here to keep you snockered for the rest of your decrepit life. Now do I have to hear about that dream of yours again?


~ ~ ~

Surprising no one, least of all Darius' dutiful son, we settled in place, and the old guy got to boozing.

Inside Perseopolis, we started building a scout and worked the riverside deer tile for a decent 2F/1H/1C. Meanwhile, our starting warrior headed west in search of ancient ruins and some decent haleem.

He found no haleem, nor indeed any other of his favorite dishes, but he did stumble upon a great city location, chock full of grapes. There was much rejoicing. Monasteries, anyone?

1c.jpg


A nearby ruin yielded a rich return of gold. What civilization had thrived and died, leaving such a trove in the wilderness?

~ Strategic Interlude ~

By the start of turn 6, our scout had completed and it was clear that we had good land to expand westward, though I had not yet found any new unique resources with which to support a REX strategy. My only viable build options at this point were:

1. second scout
2. worker
3. monument
4. warrior

My sense of the map was that I was going to be using both the Tradition AND Liberty trees. With all the nearby wine, I could make a reasonable go at a small (2-4 city) culture win as well as the other victory conditions. Other questions remained:

How to best generate GA-triggering events on this map?
a. wonders -- possible, but no marble. would need maritime city-states to supply food for Perseopolis to be a hammer capital; consider taking Aristocracy in Tradition for wonder boost?
b. great people -- the two western city locations would both support high-food, great people-focused cities.
c. policies -- Liberty and Piety each contain GA-granting policies.
d. happiness -- there is not a lot of it visible at the moment.

Funny how a simple second build decision seems to impact the whole opening strategy, based on just five turns of play ...

Here's the western frontier:

1e.jpg


On the coast is a decent great person farm that could run several specialists (especially with landed elite and a granary) from the two fish and one deer tile. Along the western river is the aforementioned wine site, great for culture and commerce.

At this point, only barely explored the east, but it appears to be floodplain heaven, suggesting lots of food and commerce for specialists.

Early indications are that my Golden Ages are going to come from great people, wonders built in Perseopolis, and policies from monastery-fueled culture and cutural city states bribed with my nice commerce tiles. It's going to be a challenge to generate a golden age solely with my luxury-based happiness if I expand very much.

Based on this very early assessment, I am going to assume that I can't REX hard right away, due to the lack of new happy resources. I am going to be limited to one or two new cities until I can find more happiness. So ... I'm going to commit to Tradition, skip the monument, and build a scout. I wavered as to building a warrior instead, as the starting land appears to be fairly flat, and a warrior is a more durable scouting unit that could double as a garrison unit later. Ultimately, though, I have found that building a second scout often comes in handy and keeps me from engaing in fruitless barbarian battles that I would otherwise fight if I had a warrior. So a second scout is the build. This also works out nicely timing-wise, as it will finish on the same turn as Pottery, giving me the option to build a granary right away.

I am skipping a worker at the moment because he would arrive with nothing to do other than farm a riverside plain, which is the same production as my unimproved riverside deer tile. So a second scout it is. I will tech AH>Trapping>Calendar after Pottery finishes.

~ Gameplay Resumed ~

Belgrade was met to the southwest; Military, Friendly, and in possession of a gold tile.

Pottery came in, and as planned I took Animal Lovin' next.

Our scout found ruins describing use of a strange wood and twine contraption that fired "arrows." They shrugged and trundled off, unaware of their new ranged firepower.

With the second scout completed, it was clear that a worker was still premature, as I had no worthwhile tiles to improve. I started on a granary and moved Perseopolis to a production posture, stagnating growth but delivering the Granary two turns earlier than otherwise.

On Turn 12, we met the Inca, who presumably are from further east.

There are a TON of wine tiles on this map. I've counted 8 so far ... 3 at Perseopolis, 2 to the west, 2 to the east, and 1 to the southeast. Drunk Immortals comin' atcha!

Snagged a ruin right from under Pacabooty's nose. Love that. More population for Perseoplis.

Turn 12 was also the first time I found a new unique luxury, a gem tile pretty far to the southeast. And a ton more of them were found to the east the next turn by scout 2. Hmm. The more I explore, the more this smells like a small continent, shared with the Inca. My sense is that lopsided resources tend to indicate relative isolation.

And then, on turn 14, the holy of holies ... the culture ruin. Oh yes. Another reason I love building two scouts. I also found marble to the southeast, near the gem tile I first found. For those of you keeping score at home, that's a whopping (...) two unique happy resources so far, plus one from a friendly city-state, after a lot of scouting.

With the culture ruin, I go ahead and take Tradition based on my earlier assessment. Would that come back to bite me?

Venice met ... Maritime, Irrational, Furs. Another new luxury, and maritime, so not too shabby all in all.

I spent a few turns searching for the Inca to the east but was having no luck finding their hilly, slinger-infested homelands. When I finally found them, they were tucked behind a short mountain range. Good land, with gems and gold and the ubiquitous highland terrain, but in a position where they could be blocked ...

The map is so great, so much land to expand into, but there is just not enough happiness to sustain a REX in the early game.

The granary finished, and I was working on Trapping, having already completed Animal Husbandry. It was time for a worker, who when built could pasture the cows now in Perseopolis' workable area plus the deer. I stayed in a production focus with my citizens, saving a whopping six turns on construction time from the default production scheme.

Regarding the Inca: I have my scout-promoted to Archer parked on a hill, ready to worker steal if possible. He is also guarding a nice marble/gems happiness site for my possible expansion. The Inca could be at least partially bottled up from the rest of the continent if I put a city down there quickly.

Turn 21, my second policy came in, and I stopped the round here for reflection and comment from the peanut gallery. Why? Questions and comments, of course!

Here is the scouted land to Perseopolis' east:

1q.jpg


And to the southeast, including the marble/gem site:

1r.jpg


~ ~ ~

Discussion Topics:

1. What do you make of my reasoning and gameplay overall? I'm a decent King player but no expert, and am open to suggestions. Also, I don't particularly care what victory condition I pursue.

2. Strategic Options:
2a. Monastery/Legalism: In theory, with all of my ridiculous available wine tiles, I could use Legalism to get four instant monasteries and about +28 culture, if I am willing to wait to get Theology before taking Legalism and build three more cities and monuments in all of them first. Do I have this right? Or will I get temples instead, since I have to take Philosophy to research Theology? If I'm right, wouldn't a few Liberty policies and a quick REX to four cities get me to Theology? If this is possible, it would seem to benefit a multi-city cultural strategy and offset the multiple city penalty inherent in getting new social policies. There are many downsides to this, not the least of which that none of the wine cities offers new happiness resources; I would have to use policies (Monarchy and Piety come to mind) and happiness buildings to manufacture the needed offsetting happiness.

2b. Straight Tradition: Sticking with the original gameplan conceived on turn 6, taking Legalism now and Landed Elite right away, while building a few cities to claim happy resources (hopefully the gems/marble site) and partially block the Inca. I consider this a safe choice, and it also gives me access to Monarchy later for some extra happiness and gpt. This strategy also keeps the window for an OCC game open. It does, however, put Meritocracy way, way back.

2c. Tradition/Liberty REX: Taking Liberty and Collective rule right away, trying to fully block the Inca with two quick settlers. The biggest downside to this is the opportunity cost of delaying both Landed Elite and Meritocracy, plus the fact that the map will not support more than four cities with just four workable happiness resources. A REX would essentially commit my cash to City-State alliances and my hammers to happiness buildings while pretty much eliminating the thought of a culture win. I am guessing this strategy would lead to either a hunker-down science win or GA-fueled production-explosion world-conquering extravaganza.

2d. Tradition/Liberty Meritocracy: Going straight there, Liberty > Citizenship > Meritocracy, with the idea of either using a research agreement with the Inca or hard-researching to get Civil Service and then rush-buidling Chichen Itza with a Great Engineer. This would require me beelining Philosophy right after getting Calendar.

2e. Rush the Inca. While I would be without Research Agreements until Astronomy, this rather appealing option (against a known wonder-builder) would give me the continent all to myself and in great position for a science or culture win. A quick beeline to Iron Working and a research agreement with the Inca to get Steel and put Cuzco to the sword?

2f. Any other strategic options from you?

3. How does all of this fit into my plan for a superlong golden age?

4. I have noted in the past that the Inca tend not to expand early. So perhaps going bananas trying to block them is unncessary early.
 

Attachments

If it was me, I'd settle the gem/marble site on the river tile between the forest and the grassland mtn. The first thing I'd improve is the wheat tile. The city boundry will be touching the marble tile, so I'd buy it if the game isn't going to annex next and develop that marble. I'd then do a coastal city where you have the two fish, deer and cattle tiles. I always try and do a coastal city as soon as I can, because it takes longer to develop a coastal city unless you buy the work boats. Develop that for a bit for a good economy/luxury base and then move forward with a 4th city in that area east of your Capital with the gems and sheep if it's still avaliable. If not, that could be your first acquisition, so to speak. :lol:
 
Re: city placement

For the gems/marble city, long-term I greatly prefer the coastal riverside plains tile, though it is three tiles away from the gem; I'd need to spend some cash (of which I have a goodly amount at the moment) to grab the tile right away and block off the Inca. Having all those fish but being inland with no ability to build a lighthouse or seaport seems criminal.

That would then put the other city in the area somewhere in the vicinity of 2W of the cow.

For the cities east of Perseopolis, I like the riverside plains between the wine tiles for the close city, and the riverside plains hill adjacent to the gems for the gem/sheep city.

For the western cities, I am partial to 4W of Perseopolis for the western wine city, which then dictates the coastal/great person city to the forested grassland hill tile, as it is the only tile in the area that is at least 4 tiles from the wine city location.

So that's six viable cities to place, but I lack the happiness to settle them until I learn Construction. Notice the complete absence of horses and elephants on the map; no Circuses in Persia. Happiness is going to be hard to come by, which means I may only get one Golden Age, so I've got to make it last as long as possible.

If I go for the Legalism/Monastery gambit, I would have to settle the wine sites first. I would likely lose the marble (and possibly gems/sheep) site to the Inca, as much due to happiness issues on my end as anything.

If I don't do the Monastery gambit, I think it would make a lot of sense to block the Inca by taking gems/marble and gems/sheep right away, learn Iron Working, settle an Iron city if necessary, and take him out with Swords or Longswords. This would probably allow me to use up my excess happiness to delay my golden age, so that I could prepare for the uber-long GA in mid-game in which I hopefully burn some great people, build the Taj Mahal, and take the Liberty and Piety Golden Age policies to extend the GA out as far as possible.

Another factor: due to the lack of AI trade partners and King difficulty, there isn't going to be a plethora of easy trade cash. I'm going to have to generate my gold the hard way.
 
I think they stealth changed it in the last patch. I want to say that the change was in the pre-patch notes, but I couldn't find it in the sticky patch note thread over at 2K.

It was definitely in the March patch that the change happened. I've noticed it in game before.

It's not the only stealth change.

Militaristic CSs now give XP improved units. Whether that's because they finally build the barracks/etc, or an era related change remains to be seen. I've gotten units with 2 starting upgrades (30+XP) available.

and there's some more. Such as the tile you settle on changing the city tile output. (though I may not have noticed it before)
 
I do not understand how you can get a continuous golden age. You would need great people no? If you didn't use them then you would run out of a golden age and need to restart building up happiness for another golden age.
 
Back
Top Bottom