dd2 - "The resourceless Commander"

[tao]

Originally posted by eric2075
Please explain what you mean by this.

I assume you know the mechanics and benefits of wltkd. It has been explaine so many times in the forum that I don't want to repeat it here.

Better to give you some thoughts on micromanaging:

What are the goals when you mm your cities?

1. You want to grow as fast as possible to sizes 6 or 12.
2. You want to get as much shields as meaningful possible. Example: building a 10 shield warrior, it is a big difference whether you have 4 (3 turns) or 5 (2 turns) spt. It is pointless to increase from 5 to 6,7,8, or 9.
3. You want to get as much commerce as possible. Roads, some resources, freshwater give additional commerce.[/list=1] Usually growth has precedence. Once you are size 6 (12) you want shields and commerce.
   
   Indus is not in wltkd, because of the unhappy citizen. Stop working the NNW tile, you still have 12 food. But you loose 1 shield. Better to work the SW tiel instead of the NNW tile, don't work the floodplain. I would be even better, if we had a mine on the hill.
   
   On our cities:
   
   Look at Bengal, so much wasted food, because we wait for aqueduct. The mountain should have a mine.
   
   Look at Calcutta: slow growth. The workers should have cleared/irrigated the silk by the river instead of working for unproductive New Delhi.
   
   Look at Lahore: forrest should have been cut and irrigated to spur growth.
   
   and so on ....
   
   PS: Delhi horses are mined; I missed it.

 

[eric2075]

What I meant was, how does changing the tile the citizen's working cause WLTK day? There's still an unhappy citizen unless you give them an entertainer.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Since Gengis has asked for a skip, the roster stands:

Gengis - Skippped
Eric - Up
Bugsy - On deck
tao
gorm

Eric - I think what tao meant was that sometimes a citizen will be happier working one tile over another. I'm not sure why this works, but I've been able to make a citizen happy by placing them on a more productive tile or a "nicer" tile. For example, in a game I plyed last night, I was able to make a citizen happy by moving him from the desert tile that the governor had assigned him to a BG tile. Again, don't ask me why.

 

[eric2075]

I think if you can pick up an extra commerce moving citizens sometimes that will increase the effect of the slider. I just didn't see how to do it in this example. I'll experiment with it some more before I play.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by eric2075
I think if you can pick up an extra commerce moving citizens sometimes that will increase the effect of the slider. I just didn't see how to do it in this example. I'll experiment with it some more before I play.

As I said in my post:
"work the SW tile instead of the NNW tile, don't work the floodplain"

Let me try it once again:

Don't work the floodplain. (Of course, don't create an enterrainer, but a taxmen.)

Work the SW tile instead of the NNW tile.


PS: You are right: Since the effect of the luxury slider is calculated on a per city basis, getting more commerce increases the effect. This also explains Sir Bugsy's observation.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

So if a citizen makes more commerce, he or she is happier. Makes sense. I'm happier when I have more money coming in. I wish whoever is moving citizens around in my city moves me to a high commerce tile soon.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
So if a citizen makes more commerce, he or she is happier. Makes sense. I'm happier when I have more money coming in. I wish whoever is moving citizens around in my city moves me to a high commerce tile soon.

The first part is a misunderstanding of the game mechanics:

Specialists (taxmen, scientists, entertainers) are not subject to mood (happy, content, unhappy). Thus creating a specialist may trigger wltkd.

A taxman nets 1 gold, whereas a citizen might bring in 9 commerce (hill, gold, river, railroad, bank). Thus creating taxmen withou need is a bad idea, except in highly corrupt cities, as wltkd does not push commerce, only shields.

 

[eric2075]

I apologize but work is brutal lately. I have to ask for a skip since my mind is toast right now.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I got it and will play within the next 36 hours.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Pre-turn – 470 AD – I'm following tao’s bon mots here.
TzinTzunTzen switched to temple and hurried for 84G. Tenochtitlan switched to temple, but with resisters a rush will have to wait.. Starvation diet ordered for both cities.
Karachi: Aqueduct rushed for 176G
Bengal: Aqueduct rushed for 40G
Indus: Changed from a Barracks to an aqueduct. MM’ed.
New Philly: Changed from barracks to temple and rushed for 12G.
Washington: Temple rushed for 24G. Maybe we can put some cultural pressure on the Chinese city of Macao.
Boston: Changed from Barracks to Temple and rushed for 36G.
Bombay: MM’ed to grow one turn faster. Switched to Sun-Tzu. (I always assume I won’t get a leader. This may be but I’ll stand by this decision.)
New Delhi: Switched to Courthouse. Already had a temple.
Chittagong: Changed from Spear to Courthouse. (My thought here is that the courthouses will cut corruption in these outlying cities.)
Mumbal: Rax=>Temple
Oil Springs: Temple rushed for 24G.
Ganges: Rax=> Courthouse
Pune: Switched to courthouse for corruption.

Diplo – Make 10G selling our map.
Sell Germany Engineering for 5 gpt and 35G.

IBT – Our spears in Tenochtitlan takes out an attacking archer and horse, and retreats a second horse.
Delhi: Archer=> Coliseum (Elephant pre-builds)
Washington: Temple=>Courthouse (These courthouse are to cut corruption.)
New Philly: Temple=> Courthouse
Lahore: Archer=> Coliseum (elephant)
Karachi: Aqueduct=>Coliseum (elephant)
Boston: Temple=> Courthouse
Oil Springs: Temple=> Courthouse
Bengal: Aqueduct=> Coliseum (elephant)
Tzintzu: Temple=> Courthouse
Mumbal: Temple=> Courthouse
Punjab: Spear=>Coliseum (elephant)
Malinalco riots due to the two resisters. These people need a starvation diet to chill out.

1 – 480 AD – Kill a 1hp horse with an elite archer. Move spear to cover archer. Maneuvering. Move a settler out of Washington to claim the furs next turn.
Get 9G selling map.

IBT - Battle of Tenochtitlan continues. Two horses retreat and a archer is killed trying to retake the city.

Kolhapur: Spear=> Coliseum (elephant)

2 - 490 AD – Elite archer kills reg archer – no loss.
Found Pondicherry SE of Washington grabbing the furs. Lux drops to 0%.
Break for a business meeting.
Notice on return that the Japanese have a horse and an archer just outside of Oil Springs. Move two archers into the city just in case, Toko is thinking not nice thoughts.
Kill two red-lined horses outside of Tenochtitlan with archers. Still no leader.

IBT – Kill an Aztec horse.
Japanese declare war on us
Our gallant spear in Oil Springs flawlessly kills a Japanese archer.
Madras: Temple=>Coliseum (elephant)
Calcutta: Spear=> Spear
Jaipur: Archer=> Archer
Resistance ends in Tenochtitlan

3 - 500 AD – Rush temple in Tenochtitlan for 104G.
Rush temple in Pondicherry for 116G. Let’s expand those borders!!
Lose a regular archer outside of Tzintzu attacking a spear. Vet archer kills him, no promotion.
Outside of Tula, our vet archer picks off a wandering spear, but is redlined.

IBT – An Aztec horse is redlined killing a spear protecting our archers.
One of our chokepoint warriors is redlined killing a Jag warrior. Then is killed by a second Jag.
Another single Japanese archer approaches Oil Springs. Nothing like the use of overwhelming force.
Tenochtitlan: Temple=> Courthouse
Pondicherry: Temple=>Courthouse

I’m think we will probably want to build our FP in Boston, since it is in the center of the former American/Azteca lands.

4 - 510 AD – Science slider comes down to 50% - Chivalry still due in 3. I’m using scientists instead of clowns in our starvation cities. Knock off the Aztec horse that killed our spear.

IBT – Monty wants an audience. You won’t give anything but straight peace. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Our Chokepoint warrior redlines the second Jag and he runs away like the coward he is.
Our spear in Oil Springs defeats another Japanese archer. They move three units our way.
Bangalore: Archer=>Courthouse (elephant) Why do we have horses hooked up!! Where are those smelly nasty creatures!! We are a resourceless elephant loving civilization!!

5 - 520 AD – There they are outside of Tenochtitlan. I use a spear to disconnect the horses and send a worker to re-irrigate the tile. There is an Aztec Archer on our gems and will probably pillage it next turn. Set lux to 10% so marginal cities won’t riot.
Take a chance on killing the archer on our gems mountain with a 3/4 archer, but he dies.
I get 8G hawking our map around the world.
I can buy Hiawatha into our war with Japan for Monotheism.

I’m going to stop here and get the team’s opinion on whether we should bring the Iroquois in against the Japanese. I should have done this right off, when the Japanese first declared. This will give us an opportunity to make a serious dent in Azteca and then turn to Japan. The Iroquois can be absorbing the brunt of the Japanese attacks while we get our elephants ready. I will wait 12 hours before continuing, so everyone can chime in.

Also, What does everyone think about FP location? I will attach a picture. I'm thinking Boston is a prime location, and not because Fenway Park is there

 

[Sir Bugsy]

After sleeping on this game, I think I made two poor choices.

First, I shouldn't have sold any techs for any price. I was just getting another civ closer to gunpowder and Mil Tradition. So that was

Second, I should have probably brought the Iroquois in immediately against the Japanese. I should probably bring the Chinese in too. Another couple of hours, and I'll finish my turns.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

5. (continued) 520 AD – I buy Hiawatha into our Japanese war for Monotheism.
DO NOT MAKE PEACE WITH THE JAPANESE FOR 20 TURNS OR UNTIL THE IROQUOIS MAKE PEACE FIRST

IBT – The MA shows immediate relief to Oil Springs. The Japanese capture Mauch Chunk from the Iroquois with three horses that were across the river from Oil Springs.
At Oil Springs: We lose a vet spear to a horseman. A vet spear defeats a Japanese horse.
Our gems are not disconnected. The archer moves towards our stack that is going to attack Tlatelolco.
Hyderabad: Archer=> Archer

6 – 530 AD – Siege of Tlatelolco: Elite archer kills vet spear (-2hp)
Elite archer is killed flawlessly by reg. Spear who promotes
Vet archer redlines vet spear before dying. Spear promotes.
Vet archer redlines elite spear and dies. I hate the RNG.
3/4 Archer kills 1/5 spear. Tlatelolco is ours. One slave. 4 resisters. Starvation diet and temple ordered up.
Pillage both furs outside of Tlaxcala. Maneuvering to siege Tula in two turns.
Rush Dacca temple for 76G.

Use a vet archer to attack the reg archer that just moved off the gems. He redlines the archer but dies. Use a reg archer to flawlessly kill the punk.

IBT – Our spear in the Tlaxcala pillaging team kills two archers and is promoted. Japanese troops run towards Iroquois lands. No Japanese troops in our area.
Chivalry comes in. Select Invention due in 40. Science at 10%.
Calcutta:Spear=>spear
Jaipur: Archer=> Elephant
Dacca: Temple=> Courthouse

7 – 540 AD – All coliseums switched to elephants. Hurry two elephants for 288G.
I will send all elephants to the Oil Springs area. I’ll send archers towards Azteca. The Aztecs are just about gassed. They don't have any strategic resources and only one lux.

For peace, Monty will give us a worker, 30G, 5 GPT and Tula. Sorry, not good enough.

IBT – A horse out of Xochicalco (X-town) kills an archer heading towards Tlatelolco. Our Tlaxcala pillaging team successfully defends against an archer and a horse.
Delhi: Elephant => Elephant
Lahore: E => E
Karachi: E => E
Bengal: E => E
Resistance finally ends in Malinalco

8 – 550 AD – Rush temple in Malinalco.

Elephants heading towards Japanese front. Archers towards Aztec front.

Kill the offending horse outside X-town with an elite archer then cover him with a spear.

Seige of Tula: 4/4 archer kills 3/3 spear (-1hp)
4/4 archer kills 3/3 spear (-2hp)
Tula autorazed. One slave. One settler ordered up in New Philly and rushed for 60G.
Found a spare settler in Washington. Changed New Philly back to courthouse and moved settler towards site of Tula.

IBT – Spear on pillaging mission outside of Teothuacan. kills an archer. Jag warrior attacks a vet archer near Tula site and dies, promoting our archer to elite.
Malinalco: Temple=>Courthouse

9 – 560 AD – Start pillaging near Teothuacan and X-town.
More Maneuvering.
IBT – Nothing
Madras: E=>E
Indus: Aqueduct=> Courthouse

10 – 570 AD – More Maneuvering.

Summary: I think I took care of all of tao’s worker recommendations. I’ve been trying to MM our core cites to produce shields after corruption of 5, 7 or 10 per turn for elephant production. We presently have 5 elephants and that is growing rapidly. We have somewhere in the neighborhood of 26 slaves and 26 workers. We still have plenty of work to do so keep collecting slaves.

There is a settler heading towards the former Tula city site. Which tile you settle is your call.

I have two pillaging teams. One is in the north and one is around the capitol. The reason I started pillaging these two areas was to try and starve the populations to under 6. It is difficult enough going archer against spear. I didn't want to give them any additional defensive bonus.

Monty will now give us peace for the city of Atzcapotzalco, 1G, 10GPT, and a worker. That will be your call also.

Good luck tao.

The Save

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Here's a roster check -

Gengis
Eric
Bugsy - Just Played
tao - UP
gorm - On deck

 

[gormdragan]

My offshore "vacation" is over, please put me back in the shuffle.

 

[tao]

Got it (after finishing 6-2 and upgrading my Macintosh to 10.3 ). Will play tomorrow.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

*cough, cough*

 

[tao]

With 6-2 done and panther working, I did my turns.

Take inventory: treasury 2147g (very good, I will spend it); +128g. Our reputation is trashed; AIs don't do gpt deals with us; this is bad.
Establish embassy w Germany (Berlin will build Sun Tzu's in 59 turns) and England
Deals: Germany gives 51g, wm for ROP, tm; China gives worker, wm for 24g, wm; Hia gives wm, 3g for wm.
Set lux tax to 0, research to 0 w lone scientist in former Aztec city.
Clown in Washington will start wltkd; hurry market in Bengal for 340g ouch but will start wltkd w the same effect vs corruption as a courthouse plus more commerce; put Chittagong into wltkd w taxman; hurry elephant in Punjab for 40g (will help against Aztecs); hurry court in Ganges for 60g; taxman s wltkd in Pune;
treasury now 1567g; +175gpt
IMHO peace w Aztecs is not an option, because they have much more culture and there would be a tremendous flip risk for our conquered cities.

Hit return.

Japan wants to talk peace. We agree and see, that they have neither chivalry nor iron

(1) 580 move towards Yokohama
(2) 590 archer kills Aztec colleague; 2 vet archers kill 2 defending spears and we capture Tlaxcala getting 3 slaves
elephant kills spear in Yokohama; our Golden Age starts; capture Yokohama and raze it; hurry courts in Mumbal and Chittagong
(3) 600 kill 1 archer, loose 1 archer
(4,5) 610, 620 move troops
(6) 630 Japan knows chivalry; we have to get to their iron
(7) 640 Japan, Germany know theology; capture Xochicalco and Mauch Cunk; hurry court in Pune
(8) 650 Great Library gives Theology; we capture Tlacopan loosing elite elephant
(9,10) 660, 670 move and kill
(11) 680 Great Library gives us invention; s printing press
capture Atzapotzalco; capture Nara w 2 slaves and barracks killing 2 pikes and loosing 1 elephant
(12) 690 Great Leader Chandragupta; what to do? Bombay will build Sun Tzu's in 9, we need neither Sistine nor Leo's really urgently. Thus I decide to save him for Forbidden palace.
(13) 700 capture Texcoco
(14) 710 capture Centralia; capture Satsuma w 2 slaves and barracks; capture Teotihuacan
(15) 720 capture Nagoya w barracks
(16) 730 capture Grand River
(17) 740 capture Tokyo killing 2 samurai, 1 pike, loosing 2 elephants; capture Calixtlahuaca and destroy the Aztecs
hurry Forbidden palace in Satsuma
(18) 750 Forbidden Palace in Satsuma
(19) 760 capture Kagoshima and Edo
(20) 770 move troops

The Save.

 

[gormdragan]

Got it...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Wow tao!!

For lurkers, here are some screen shots

What's left of Japan

And our future target, the Iroquois

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Here's our Mapstat situation:

Japan: 70 tiles
Iroquois: 128 tiles
China: 236 tiles

That's 434 tiles on our continent plus the offshore islands. If we're going for conquest, we'll have to be careful once we take China out. If we're going for domination, we could be close with just our continent.

tao, What were your thoughts on where to put the FP?