Dealing with Chaos Mana (as the Balseraph)?

[Raize]

Here's the deal:

I like Mimics. Something about using my enemies' strengths against them is incredibly poetic. (I like Domination magic, too, but getting to Archmage isn't very easy.)

But I don't like Chaos mana. From what I understand, Chaos mana (and the OO religion?) randomly gives units a chance to go Barbarian, and woe-be-to the person who uses Mutate and gains the Crazed or Enraged promotion. I've had situations where very high-level units (level 12+) have suddenly gone berserk.

This is discouraging, because I can't think of a way to counteract the effects of units going native.

Do you have any ideas as to what I can do to combat this phenomenon?

 

[DrPepper836]

Throw them in the arena things until they die. But if you get unlucky, you make them stronger. Still, it should kill them quickly.

 

[odalrick]

Never Mutate units you can't afford to lose. Chaos mana gives a chance to mutate when the unit is built, Loki should mutate the the rest as soon as possible. Being mutated prevents further mutation, so they're safe from then on.

Any unit with the Crazed promotion should be considered lost. Enraged units can be used for target practice by deleting them, they go barbarian then, or if they are worthwhile and you have nearby opponents, winning a combat should sort them out.

Once you get a priest, the majority of mutations is beneficial or neutral.

I like Mimics too, the only problem is that they can steal promotions that they already have, which is a bit of a let down.


/Perpentarch forever.

 

[Blackmantle]

Try Law Mana 1. Solidly fixes that issue (100%) and even turns crazed into a solid plus (extra movement + strength is always nice even if its not utterly reliable.)

Also units turning barbarian imo is an asset not a drawback (but thats because i play sidar often. And for them more barbs i can control where to appear = more "safe" XP= more Shades)

Mutation is just sweet (one of the best Buffs in the game for standard tropps imo.).
And since Enervation has gone (its "new" replacement Wither is curable) it has no really big drawback (weak is not nice but nothing to bad in normal games.) which is unfixable anymore even for world-units.

Mutate first, then upgrade the good ones + use the bad ones as fodder.

 

[odalrick]

Does Loyalty stop them from going barbarian completely, or does it just cause the units to die instead of defecting?

 

[A_Hamster]

Another Loyalty question: Is Loyalty supposed to work against Domination? My recent experiences suggest it does not as my Archmagi were Dominating city defenders with Loyalty, but the pedia says that units will die instead of being captured, which was not the case.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ odalrick: Yes it does prevent the unit from going barbarian on itself in case of Crazed / Enraged / Burning Blood.
If you disband it it still turns barb. (So it changes from a drawback to a complete advantage. And a permanent one in case of crazed / burning-blooded. Albeit a bit unreliable in case of crazed.)

@ A_Hamster: Looking at Nikis-Knights comments on the issue lately it seems to be intended to "protect" from Domination as well (by having the unit die).
Currently it doesn't and you get the unit with loyalty attatched.

I always considered it makes sense flavorwise since command + subdue are about breaking a units will or beeing extremely charismatic (and yielding to its fate for its own wellbeeing in the end. Where a loyal unit whouldn't even yield to such pressure if faced with death) but domination about total mind control (which whould make a high degree of loyalty not help against it since the unit isn't controlling itself loyal or not)
But because of someone from the team has stated otherwise it could be considered a bug reasonably certain.

But i have to admit that such a different handling of subdual / domination on intent whould be confusing.
Also i didn't mind the wider implications much which might very well include to deliberately limit the players from doing certain things that might break coming scenarioes (see Orthus getting Loyalty. Thats a hint its intended that you can't get him. And with Gibbon Domination can be gained very early. At times early enough to fetch Orthus.). So i consider its also implemented / intended as some sort of design-tool.

Therefore expect that 2 spells fixed soon.

 

[A_Hamster]

Thanks, Blackmantle. Also, your answer to odalrick is of use to me in my current Amurite game. I've been avoiding Chaos mana despite the utility since I don't like my garrisons turning barb and running off (This was a problem when playing the Balseraphs). If Loyalty fixes that, then I can get Chaos Mana for Govannon and have him train everyone in Dance of Blades. (And have a few Chaos specialists too.)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

@ A_Hamster: Looking at Nikis-Knights comments on the issue lately it seems to be intended to "protect" from Domination as well (by having the unit die).
Currently it doesn't and you get the unit with loyalty attatched.

This is my understanding, however, the game being wrong and me being wrong are both valid options.

On topic, you've pretty much summed up the issue. What I do for my mimics is to always upgrade them from freaks. (But this isn't any different from building them and then casting mutate, I suppose). If the mutation is great, upgrade right away. If it is so-so, fight in the arena until they are great. If they are crazed, put them on explore and let the rest of the world deal with it--though I didn't think to try law mana.

 

[warhawk26]

Balseraph is, currently, my favorite civ in no small part because I love mimics. My method for training them is to build lots and lots of warriors in the early game and have Loki mutate them all. I don't ever build freaks, too many hammers better spent elsewhere in my opinion-I would rather pay gold and upgrade the warriors eventually to mimics. Like everyone else I keep the ones with good, neutral mutations and arena the bad ones till they even out or die. I don't worry about disease because I frequently play OO with Balseraph and will cure the disease with my cultists.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

As a side note, Enraged adepts make amazing mages, so long as you don't overdo it. They get the free promotions on Domination/Command conversion, so you can get mages with Combat V, Extension II, every sphere, and whatever else tickles your fancy .

The overdoing it is when you run out of promotions, and can't reach level 4/6 because there's nothing left for you to take. I've done this before too due to unintentionally going barb .

I agree that Enraged is an advantage, since it's free XP or stronger fodder.