Decline of Celtic Europe?

[Pangur Bán]

Please, explain why the Celts declined so much that they are on the verge of extinction today.

In the time of the Roman Republic, they dominated all western Europe west of the Rhine, north of the Po. They began to decline during, or rather, just before the 2nd Punic War. The last independent Celtic culture was destroyed on the aftermath of Culloden (1746). They are now effectively dead, although two modern states retain Celtic languages as official languages.

Why did it happen to them?

One might want to consider, why did the Celts decline but the Germanic tribes didn't? What was the important difference?

 

[D' Artagnan]

IMO, the Celts haven't declined. They've just incredibly well assimilited to the local cultures. They have brought a lot to modern culture and are still very present in places like Brittany in France, Ireland, etc.
Contrary to the Romans, the Celt hadn't any intentions to form an Empire and "culture-assimilate" the conquested lands population.

 

[napoleon526]

The Celts did not have the political orginization needed to survive. True, while most of central and northern Europe was under Celtic influence, there was no political authority other than local chieftains. Not until invasion by the Romans did the Celts see the need to band together, but by then it was too late.

 

[phoenix_night]

They lost out to the romans because there was no real political unity.

But they aren't facing extinction at all, there is no modern decline.

 

[gael]

I think the same as napoleon526 on this one.
I think when people read about the the vast land that at the Celts inhabited over history, they mistake it for some sort of vast empire.

I doubt there was hardly any unity between the tribes, and some of them probably never even felt some sort of connection to the other.
When they did eventually band together against Rome, it was, like napoleon526 says, already to late.
I think there close proximity to Rome and likeing a fight did'nt help either.

The German tribes were on the edge of Romes empire, when they started to get their act together, Rome was starting to decline.

A people are defined by thier culture. Celtic culture is alive and well in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and to a lesser extent Brittany.
I doubt its on the verge of extinction. Old traditions and culture is running along with new ones, and at times Intertwining.

The old celt has just modernised thats all.

 

[Vrylakas]

In the 19th century Pan-Slavism swept through much (though not all) of East Central Europe. Nowadays the dream of living in a Russian-dominated super Slav state seems to have lost its sheen, so some odd things have been popping up since. Poles have pined about their alleged Irano-Sarmatian origins, while Czechs nowadays are apparently "re-discovering" their Celtic heritage. The article below is a snippet from a Czech radio website (found here):

The Beltine Celtic festival to take place in Moravia

[18-04-2001] By Alena Skodova
By Alena Skodova.

At the end of April a festival of Celtic culture will be held in the Czech Republic, organized by the Brotherhood of Celts Association, which was founded five years ago. Alena Skodova spoke with the brotherhood's chairman, Tomas Krivanek.

"Beltine is an old, pre-Christian holiday by which our predecessors some 2000 years ago celebrated the coming of the warm, sunny season. It used to be a very merry holiday with beer drinking, roasting pigs and other animals, and huge bonfires - something like today's good bye to winter and welcome spring holiday that we celebrate at the end of April called "witch burning". The Beltine festival in the Czech Republic at present is a migrating holiday, and is being organized for the 7th time, alternating between Bohemia and Moravia."

Mr. Krivanek said that there will be more than 150 performers at this year's Beltine festival which will feature horse riding, archery, dancing and music. Visitors will see for instance the Petronila ensemble, which is considered the best Irish dance group outside of Ireland. But the greatest attraction will undoubtedly be the Luarna Lubre group from Galicia in Spain - a world famous Celtic music band that often plays with Mike Oldfield both at concerts and in the recording studio.

This year's Beltine will take place in Moravia, in the village of Nesovice near Brno, and I asked Mr. Krivanek why did the organizers choose this location?

"Nesovice are an extremely interesting place because there's a chateau there - pure Italian Renaissance in the middle of Moravia - secondly, this chateau has never been open to the public and it is likely to fall into private hands so there won't be any chance to see it in the future. And last but not least the Nesovice mayor welcomes us with open arms - the Beltine festival can only take place in a location whose representatives show understanding for such a venture."

Experience from the previous years show that there are usually some 2000 people taking part in the Beltine holiday celebrations. In truth, the organizers don't really want the numbers to exceed several thousand people because it wouldn't be like the family venture that they want it to be.

The Beltine Celtic festival will take place on April 30th and May 1st, so if Celtic culture is your cup of tea, don't hesitate to join other revelers on their way to Nesovice. It should be worth it.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by calgacus
One might want to consider, why did the Celts decline but the Germanic tribes didn't? What was the important difference?

Maybe because the Celts were on the way of the romans?

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by gael
I think the same as napoleon526 on this one.
I think when people read about the the vast land that at the Celts inhabited over history, they mistake it for some sort of vast empire.

I agree.

Thinking of the Celts of Spain, Britain, Ireland, Gaul, North Italy, and Asia Minor as 'one big nation' is like thinking that the Native Americans who inhabited the great plains and forests of the North American continent were 'one big nation'.
They were in fact many independant tribes all sharing a common culture....but not a common leader or government.

The early Germanic tribes were the same, but not being conquered by the Romans, they had many centuries to evolve their political & social structure (and indeed copy some aspects of Roman society for themselves).
The Celts never had this luxury....they were conquered before they had time to change.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by luiz


Maybe because the Celts were on the way of the romans?

Well, yeah. Pure chance. The Celts got in the way of the Romans. One has to remember two things 1)the Romans had a pathelogical obsession with Celts, because of their sack of the city and various defeats which they inflicted, and, 2) the Romans had possibly reached the limits of their expansion before they actually got to Germany. The Germans were thus saved.

 

[Seanirl]

It's probably due to the Brits invading Scotland and Ireland.

That drove the language and culture virtually to extinction.

Celtic culture is alive and well in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and to a lesser extent Brittany.
I doubt its on the verge of extinction. Old traditions and culture is running along with new ones, and at times Intertwining.

pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.

****ing stupid. The whole ****ing country's a mess. I'd give it 3 years before it's a third world country..... again. Then the mass-emigrations begin again.... at which point the government will **** themselves and the cycle of tax reduction will start all over again.

Industries move in.... government tax them up. Third world country. And on and on.

VRT's what pisses me off the most.

 

[Kafka2]

There's a lot more to a culture than language.

 

[Yago]

Please, explain why the Celts declined so much that they are on the verge of extinction today.

Well, I do not think that the celts are on the verge of extinction. Nor do I think that the western Islands of Europe were truly "celtic". If I remember correctly, the western Islands of Europe were penetreted by some celtic settlers. A minority which would put a clear cultural stamp on the other people living there.

Than for extinct-culture. The culuture of the Germanic-tribes you mention, isn't around today anyway. Those people interbeeded and their culture mixed, developing something new. I'm living in a former celtic-heartland, Helvetia. And the romans mixed with the celts, resulting in a celtic-roman culture. And they mixed with the migrants to come, mixing with them, originate just another new culture.

Roman culture is complete extinct too, but left many traces. So did the celts, and I think it's more then city-names like Geneva or Zürich. Ever heard of "Fasnacht" ?

 

[Al Zan]

what happen in Culloden (1746)?

 

[pawpaw]

Originally posted by Al Zan
what happen in Culloden (1746)?

english defeat bonnie prince charles and pretty much end scotlands independence

 

[Cullyn]

Originally posted by Seanirl
It's probably due to the Brits invading Scotland and Ireland.

That drove the language and culture virtually to extinction.



pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.

****ing stupid. The whole ****ing country's a mess. I'd give it 3 years before it's a third world country..... again. Then the mass-emigrations begin again.... at which point the government will **** themselves and the cycle of tax reduction will start all over again.

Industries move in.... government tax them up. Third world country. And on and on.

VRT's what pisses me off the most.

This is the second time I have read this rubbish from you mate. It was bull then and it’s still bull

First, Gaeilge declined mainly to the famine and the subsequent emigration. The people who left and died in the 1800’s where by and large the poorest of there time and it was in that community that the language was kept alive. The middle classes mostly spoke English as that was the language of law and business. Even saying that, only 50 miles from where I am sitting there is a Gaeltacht area where English is only spoken to strangers.

Second, the whole country is not in a mess. We are in better shape that we have been for 70 years. There are troubles, but nothing compared to what we had in the 80’s. Unemployment is at roughly 5%, the population is young and growing, and immigration is the norm, not emigration. Things are being built and the life of most of our people is good. Spare us your rubbish about a Third world country; that is idiocy. We are one of the richest countries in the EU now.

Third. Ireland has one of the lowest tax burdens in the EU on its citizens and on business.

As for VRT (that’s Vehicle Registration Tax folks, a really high tax on new cars), yep is sucks, but I’m sure that you would be angry if income tax went up. But I tell ya what, start buying second hand cars.

Here’s a question, did you vote in the last election, and before you say it, I did and not for the FF/PD government we have now.

So, how about you do your country favour and stop talking threw your arse.

As for the Celts, well lets be honest, we only have ourselves to blame. Why we didn’t just burn Rome to the ground and save the rest of the world a lot of trouble I will never know. But, we survived and are still here. Bloody Romans.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Seanirl
It's probably due to the Brits invading Scotland and Ireland.

That drove the language and culture virtually to extinction.



pfft. That's looking on the bright side.... people would rather speak the language of the people who oppressed them for 800 years than their own language.

****ing stupid. The whole ****ing country's a mess. I'd give it 3 years before it's a third world country..... again. Then the mass-emigrations begin again.... at which point the government will **** themselves and the cycle of tax reduction will start all over again.

Industries move in.... government tax them up. Third world country. And on and on.

VRT's what pisses me off the most.

Man, that language of yours really refresh some memories of my time in Dublin ! Not that I agree with your ideas, though !
Reminds as well of one poster at TCD were it was written : "one country, Ireland, one language, ?".

 

[gael]

Bad neighbourhoods.

 

[LouLong]

More seriously, I second entirely what D' Artagnan wrote about both assimilation and organization.

Now, you could ask nearly the same question about Romans who controlled in a better way a larger area.
Where are they now ?

Their language is partly around but mostly thanks to Latin. And Italians today probably don't have much to do with the Romans of the second century AD who in turn were probably much different from the ones of the first century AD.

Celts adapted to Romanization and later German invasions. I am not sure Romans could have done the same to Celtic culture easily. Now this is a mere rethoric question since Celts never had the organisation to control and assimilate people such as the Romans.

 

[Kafka2]

Originally posted by LouLong


Man, that language of yours really refresh some memories of my time in Dublin ! Not that I agree with your ideas, though !
Reminds as well of one poster at TCD were it was written : "one country, Ireland, one language, ?".

One adjective.

 

[barron of ideas]

I knew the Irish were professional grade haters, but I had no idea they were still angry with the Romans, who have been out of business for what, 1500 years?