Defensive Pacts? Bug?

[I was NC]

It is in no way automatic. You did not automatically sign the defensive pact.

Of course the DP was a choice. An equally obvious statement is the penalty is not for entering into one. Instead it's for a not-inherent possibility.

Is there another similar circumstance like in the game? I can't think of one. Seems like you have a different opinion as to whether it's the right outcome, which is fine, but I'm yet to see how my perspective is wrong.

However, to narrow down the question, should the game give you a hit with the AI on the other side of your DP? I don't see how that's a defensible outcome but am open to argument.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

5 minutes ago I would have agreed, then I thought what if a DoF mattered ? If so then what would Germany in OP think about the value of a DoF with you ? Yes you kept your word on the DP, but a DoF seems to have no value to you. You'll enter into a DoF when you don't really mean it.

If it's about doF value the A.I.s need to call other A.I.s on their bupkis when they ask both sides of an existing war for friendship. I did not know Caesar could be that much of a blowhard.
"You want to be friends?"
"Yes, let Spain and Rome work together for our benefit"
*next turn*
Caesar and Suleiman have made a declaration of friendship.


Obviously no machine thinks this is ridiculous of Caesar, and obviously he can't possibly lose from this. The one time the A.I. did anything that truly makes no sense.

 

[Polisurgist]

However, to narrow down the question, should the game give you a hit with the AI on the other side of your DP? I don't see how that's a defensible outcome but am open to argument.

I think in general, it would be better if your warmonger penalty was lessened with other civs who dislike the ones you're going to war with, but I think that regardless of whether a defensive pact is involved.

 

[pilot00]

I think in general, it would be better if your warmonger penalty was lessened with other civs who dislike the ones you're going to war with, but I think that regardless of whether a defensive pact is involved.

Pretty much there is no warmongering penalty from civilizations that have made DoF with you, if they have neutral or below relations with a CiV you dowed. Currently I am moping up the Iroquois after three DoWs and Sweden, Ethiopia and Spain are looking the other way. So does Denmark apparently, but they must have no contact with them I reckon.

 

[b7fanatix]

I normally pick one nation to befriend and offer them only, a DP. If this "freind" turns out to be untrustworthy, I reroll. Usually I pick China, since she doesn't make freinds lightly, ie. if she secretly harbours any kind of dislike for you, you'll never get a DoF in the first place. She also seems low on the "victory competitiveness" thing, ie. if you're close to a victory condition, she won't get jealous and turn on you, unlike most of the others. Of course their personalities all get randomised a little at the start of every game and sometimes she's just reckless, occasionally she hates you too and has a DoW on you by turn 20. At least you can see when this has happened pretty early on and know what to expect.

Anyway, with regard to these DPs... I'm wondering if they are actually worth it.

I was assuming

1) It gives me a Diplomatic + with the Civ I'm in the pact with. Usually i have to throw this out before i can get Freindship with Wu.

2) Coming to the aid of my alliance partner is less of a Diplo hit than just manually declaring War on the agresssor.

3) That is discourages attack on the pair with the DP.

Well, it appears from this thread , that 2) and 3) are definitely not the case. 1) may still be true, to a minor extent.

My latest game, on Prince, started peacefully enough. Well, Caesar had attacked four times by turn 150, but no other wars, no cities changing hands. Anyway, Wu turns up in some cockleshell boat and we're both jostling for attention. She makes a DoF with him first (why dammit, is he just more handsome or something?), but i manage to land a DP.

Then he attacks me again! I immediately get the message that China has declared war on Rome, which can't be good for her relations. Sure enough, denunciations of China follow. But on the "Global Politics" screen, it indicates that Rome "BACKSTABBED CHINA" in big red capital letters. Soon, everyone on my continent has declared War on Rome.

I tried to keep my nose clean by not moving any of my troops into his cities. But I'd had enough of the guy, so i helped Al-Rashid, Ghengis and Bismark capture his cities by eliminating the defences, let them take the diplo hit for taking the Capitol, Razing, and wiping him out.

I kept renewing our DP. The problem is that it's now turned into Me & China vs the World. We're in a permanent state of war. I manage to broker a peace deal with one of the powers for a few turns, then it all starts up again. Everyone hates China and keeps DoWing them, so i end up at war with those guys. And everyone sees me as weak, because i am already at war with so many powers, so i get mobbed by the guys on my own continent. This puts china at war with even more powers... and so it goes on. Strangely, nobody thinks i'm a warmonger though.

I don't know if i can save this situation. It's certainly going to be a lot of work. I guess i need to cripple all the other powers before they get nukes. Given how hard it is to cap a city in this game, that won't be easy.

Ghengis Khan has the whole of Africa and access to plutonium. I'm in western Russia so I should make it a priority to take his north african city with the nuke mine.

Al-Rashid has one of Rome's old cities. I could liberate that and maybe get a loyal ally (though my previous experience of resurrecting Civs is that if they usually continue to hate you if that's what they did in a previous life) and see if that scares the Arabs into making peace with me and China. If not, cripple some more.

The biggest runaway is Askia. He has Southern and Central America all to himself , and 4 . China is in north america but struggling to hold on to Texas in the face of his onslaught. Nothing I can do about this for now, just have to hope China holds.

I guess i made it harder for myself by not wiping out civs i was at war with once i gained the upper hand. I'm haunted by an experience in an earlier game though, where Russia was my ally, and turned on me late game. As well as coveting my land and wonders, Catherine had suddenly decided i was a warmonger. I'm wonder if China will too, when the gloves come off (ie. I start razing, annexing and nuking our enemies?)

Or was that just Catherine being her usual self?

 

[b7fanatix]

Well, I managed it. Sort of. Defeated the Arabian army, then went for the jugular, not stopping till i'd captured his city with the uranium mine at the far end of the map. Liberated Rome. Gratitude was in short supply, the guy was hostile the first two times i liberated him and denounced me the next turn. He'd only last a few turns before some other Civ would annex him again. Third time around he's a little better mannered. Just recently liberated Alexander the Great, he's openly Hostile too and calls me the bloodthirsty one. Which is odd we've never been at war, and the only negative diplomatic modifier is that i declared friendship with one of his enemies (China). Well, I'll be leaving him to fend for himself then. I'm sure Rome and Greece's swordsmen will be sufficient in an age when every other Civ has tanks.

BTW, it turns out both Rome and China have a backstab malus. I didn't see China's at first , because the Relationships screen can only display the first 6 modifiers.

The liberation of the terrible twosome came about thanks to a DoW from Ghengis Khan. He nuked one of my cities, and i was tempted to nuke him back, but in the end it wasn't necessary. I had stealth bombers and Jet Fighters where he was using propeller aircraft. He produced a few mobile AA, but the Giant Death Robot had the measure of those. Captured most of North Africa, including his uranium mine. 4 cities in total. Kept the uranium one, gave the one next to it to China, the other two were liberated as Rome and Argos.

Al-Rashid then won a science victory. I'll keep playing and see if things settle down any..

 

[Chomes99]

With BNW having a DoF opens ups some trade options such as getting a lump sum of gold for luxury trades.

given what you've all said about your experiences and the game mechanics to makes sense to me to only use a DP with your BEST FRIEND FOREVER and ONLY make a DoF with somebody that you know your BFF will never DoW on if anyone at all. Most likely its gunna be you and your BFF against the world if you want to use a DP without the diplo hits.

In my opinion, if you are trying to have good diplo relations, then you must never try to be friends with someone that you are going to eventually attack (the leader civ).

Often it is a good idea to make friends with the agressive civs, like the Huns, Mongols or Atzecs, because they don't care too much if you are a warmonger at times. And they usually have bad relations with everyone else.

I believe it was some form of defensive pact that created the WWI situation, and that messed up world politics for a good long time and still going.

if you declare war on anyone, defensive pact or not, you will take a diplo hit and that's just fact. If I am going to go to war with someone, I try to make it for a situation where I can snipe a wonder-rich capital. make the pay off of war worth the diplo hit you will no doubt receive. I never go to war just to get a small diplo bonus with one civ, it is not worth it unless you were going to declare war anyways.

 

[Securion]

Don't make defensive pacts. It's a useless feature that's implemented in a half-assed way. All it does is drag you into wars that you have no business in, and the AI will treat you like you started the whole mess.

I sometimes wonder why Firaxis doesn't fix it? A modder did in less than 30 minutes.

 

[b7fanatix]

if you declare war on anyone, defensive pact or not, you will take a diplo hit and that's just fact. If I am going to go to war with someone, I try to make it for a situation where I can snipe a wonder-rich capital. make the pay off of war worth the diplo hit you will no doubt receive.

Despite getting into dozens and dozens of wars through DP (and a few without, due to me having to help China when she started something she couldn't finish. ) nobody thought i was a warmonger until i started capturing cities. I captured like 10 of them and Arabia and Bismark think i'm a warmonger, even though they were wars started by Arabia and Mongolia attacking/nuking me. I only kept 3 cities for myself. Two i razed, three i liberated (one of which got razed immediately after by a 3rd party), two traded to other powers.

I'm with you on the "XYZ is a threat to world stability, one that only can be dealt with on the battlefield, will you join me?" proposition however. Just say NO! The refusal doesn't offend much at all, and it can save your ally from getting in over their head, and being wiped out by fighting four major powers simultaneously. If they're daft enough to DOW anyway you can always step in manually should the need arise.

By the end of the game the Diplo screen was hilarious. Bismark, rather a small power, had denounced EVERY other civ, was in a phony war with a much larger power on the other side of the map (China), and a hot one vs Arabia (after i'd crippled them). Everyone pretty much hated everyone else though. I'd captured a rich Arabian city right next to their capital, gave it to the Aztecs, which now meant the Aztecs and Arabs hated each other.

Mongolia, the Aztecs and Askia still did not think i was a warmonger, obviously since they choose to live by the sword themselves. Mongolia was actually friendly after our little spat.

The biggest problem i have with Diplomacy/Domination games is one of what to do with enemy cities. Regardless of how you got to be at war, you take a huge diplomatic hit every time you capture another city, regardless of what you do with that city once it's yours. This hit is not as large as wiping a Civ off the map but it's an order of mangitude worse than what you get for a simple DoW. Also , Happiness can be a problem until the culture/tech tree is well fleshed out.

In the end there's three choices

1) Turn the other cheek. Destroy their army, accept a white peace when offered. With most Civs this guarantees a repeat performance in 10 turns.

2) Stay at war, but don't capture anything. Wait till someone else takes advantage of your opponent being distracted and having no army, then bombard their city to 0 hp so the 3rd party can capture it. Permanently weakens your opponent, 3rd party gets the diplo/happiness hit, guarantees these two will now be at war with each other forever. What i learned from my game however, is that however much of a doofus your attacker may be (Rome), don't help the 3rd party to the point where they get wiped out, or the 3rd party just becomes your new (and much stronger) enemy.

3) Capture. Militarily the best option. Everyone will hate you, but they'll fear you too.

 

[DemonMaster]

There is nothing wrong with DP or DoF. If are a player who like DoF high and low, then you should expect to broke some of them, eventually (especially since we can't see when we sign the DoF, that on the other hand is and issue with the game). If you want to have DP then you must select your friends (or friend).
This has been discussed before a gazillion times and the answer is fairly simple, don't use DP if you are such a player that like to sign DoF with everyone who asks. Also part of the same issue, if you sign DoF with pretty much everyone who asks, you will be denounced, because you will brake one or more of those DoF and that usually leads to denouncement (and sometimes a spiral down).

 

[dexters]

The timer seems bugged if a pact if it is not allowed to run its couse due to DP kicking in

1) Sign DP
2) Other party is attacked, I DoW automatically as DP kicks in (this also seems to void the DP)
3) war progresses, peace declared and so on.
4) My DP ally comes back asking to renew, I accept
5) A few turns later, DP expires anyways and I can 're-renew' the pact.

It would seem like the DP is on its original timer and renewal after it has been voided doesn't reset the clock.

Anyone having this issue?

 

[latinvspiscator]

I think this is possibly a confirmed bug, as the situation which I am about to describe doesn't make sense at all.

I am Augustus of Rome. To the south west, are three peoples, the Dutch, the Greeks and the Arabs whose leaders are William, Alexander and Harun al-Rashid respectively.
For the beginning of the game, I didn't participate in the international politics. The contentions were mostly the Greeks vs. the Dutch & the Arabs. Naturally, the Dutch and the Arabs became friends (William and Harun al-Rashid became friends). As I continued to settle towards their direction, it was inevitable that I had to make a political decision, so I could continue to safely settle ad infinitum. By democracy, I decided to side with the Dutch and the Arabs in denunciations, and take military actions on the Greeks. The Arabs asked me to declare war on the Greeks, and I decided that I would after preparation. In the meantime, I had a Declaration of Friendship with the Arabs, which appealed to the Dutch because they were friends too; the Dutch and the Arabs already had a Declaration of Friendship. I also had a Declaration of Friendship with the Dutch. It appeared to be a triumvirate among the leaders (Augustus, William, Harun al-Rashid). Alas, after preparation, I took military action against the Greeks alongside the Arabs. Then I made peace with the Greeks after pulling my weight. Then I took military action again against the Greeks at the appeal of the Dutch - and also just because Alexander wasn't penitent enough still denouncing his neighbors left and right. Finally Alexander, the Greek leader, was vanquished and I, Augustus, filled the void Alexander had vacated, occupying Sparta, Athens and Corinth.

In the meantime, I moved my army to the other side of the continent begging for a different campaign (independent from the now resolved Arab-Dutch politics vs Greeks). I thought it wouldn't matter with whom I had a Defensive Pact between the Dutch or the Arabs while my military presence was absent from the region, since they were already friends; they have a Declaration of Friendship. I chose to have a Defensive Pact with the Arabs because they were an economical choice for me. I also decided to have a Defensive Pact for the region with anyone one of them in the first place, so that I could have some State do some policing for the region while my cities in that region were busy constructing buildings, while my military was gone. Why did I need some policing for the region? Because I resolved their Alexander issue by executive power, and then I needed some force to maintain the executive power within that region.

As soon as my campaign was finished at the other side of the continent, the Dutch declared war on the Arabs (without any clear hint of provocation - no public denounciation of each other), and since I had a Defensive Pact with the Arabs, it also meant the Dutch declared war on me also. After checking my diplomatic status with each civilization at the time the Dutch declared war, I saw the diplomatic penalty on me, which doesn't make sense. YOU HAVE DECLARED WAR ON LEADERS YOU'VE MADE DECLARATIONS OF FRIENDSHIP WITH!
Even the Arabs, are saying the same thing.
It's like a citizen murdering another citizen, and all other citizens including the victim are blaming the police already for police brutality when the police haven't laid his finger on murderer yet!

et tu Brute?

tl:dr - I, civ R have two DoFs with civ A & civ D, and civ A also have DoF with civ D and vice versa. So us three civs, civ R, civ A, and civ D are officially friends. I then have a DP with civ A. Then civ D declares war on civ A without warning, and because of DP, civ D is also declaring war on me civ R - as if civ D was "unaware" of the DP and all three of us being friends in the first place. At the same time, there is this diplomatic penalty on my civ, as if I shouldn't be trusted, YOU HAVE DECLARED WAR ON LEADERS YOU'VE MADE DECLARATIONS OF FRIENDSHIP WITH!

Oh well, I won't continue my run with this game, until I get some answers.

 

[Browd]

No bugs here. You just misunderstand how Defensive Pacts work.

In a Defensive Pact, when your DP partner (here, the Arabs, or civ A) is first DOWed by another civ (here, the Dutch, or civ D), YOU automatically declare war on civ D. Repeat -- in a DP, you automatically declare war on the aggressor -- the aggressor does not declare war on you. (A historical parallel is, when Germany invaded Poland in 1939, Britain honored its DP with Poland by DOWing Germany -- Germany did not DOW Britain by entering Poland.)

This means: you automatically DOWed a civ that you had a DOF with, which makes you a backstabber.

As for your implied question about how could one civ (civ D) DOW a civ (civ A) that it had a DOF with -- backstabbing happens all the time in the game. The fact that civ A and civ D had a DOF doesn't mean civ D won't take advantage of cov A's weakness -- it just makes civ D a backstabber too.

Also, are you sure the civ A/civ D DOF was still in place when civ D attacked? DOFs expire after 50 turns (Standard speed) and you can easily miss announcement of its expiration.

 

[EditorRex]

Encountered something in my first BNW game that I don't think I've seen covered on this thread so far. Playing as America, I had DPs with both Hiawatha and Bismarck and a DOF with both them and the Arabs. Hiawatha attacks Arabs. Two CSs allied with Arabs DOW Hiawatha, so I automatically DOW them. As soon as my turn comes, I'm able to make peace with both and bribe them up to allied with me. But Bismarck and Hiawatha had both previously pledged to protect both these states. So I get nasty grams from each NPC complaining about my act of aggression against each of these CSs and the best dialogue option is to promise that I'll withdraw my armies, even though I have no armies there. Seems like an annoying gameplay bug but not sure if it has any real consequences. Did I take a diplo hit with any of those involved? I couldn't tell, but I was playing on Warlord so I could learn BNW. Might have been a bigger hit otherwise.

 

[latinvspiscator]

No bugs here. You just misunderstand how Defensive Pacts work.

In a Defensive Pact, when your DP partner (here, the Arabs, or civ A) is first DOWed by another civ (here, the Dutch, or civ D), YOU automatically declare war on civ D. Repeat -- in a DP, you automatically declare war on the aggressor -- the aggressor does not declare war on you. (A historical parallel is, when Germany invaded Poland in 1939, Britain honored its DP with Poland by DOWing Germany -- Germany did not DOW Britain by entering Poland.)

This means: you automatically DOWed a civ that you had a DOF with, which makes you a backstabber.

As for your implied question about how could one civ (civ D) DOW a civ (civ A) that it had a DOF with -- backstabbing happens all the time in the game. The fact that civ A and civ D had a DOF doesn't mean civ D won't take advantage of cov A's weakness -- it just makes civ D a backstabber too.

Also, are you sure the civ A/civ D DOF was still in place when civ D attacked? DOFs expire after 50 turns (Standard speed) and you can easily miss announcement of its expiration.

Oh well. I just want that feature from Civ IV where I could see a NPC civilization's diplomatic score with other civilizations more elaborately (with reasons why they don't like each other or reasons why they like each other). For being a backstabber, I want to know if civ D got a diplomatic hit too, that civ D is diplomatically screwed up if not more as I am. I know, I know, Civ 5 is a complete overhaul of the game mechanics since Civ IV; I probably missed the notice as you suggest since I am new to the mechanics.