[R&F] Deity on marathon, huge map with maximum number of civs -- impossible to win??

[Fornedhel]

Has anyone tried a game after R&F on these conditions? I wanted to have a domination game as Shaka and decided to try deity. I usually play marathon -- it makes the game harder because unit movement is way faster than unit production -- which means you have to be prepared: no time to build an army after a war is declared. I also play on huge maps with the maximum number of civs allowed (20?), which means I'm always close to neighbor civs.

Anyway, I've won games with that same setup before, but haven't played one since R&F. After several defeats on the first ~20-40 turns I was left with the impression that it's simply impossible. The only situation in which I wasn't obliterated by a warrior wave of death was when the map was little islands (I usually play shuffle to add the uncertainty). What happens is that, sometimes even before I can get my first unit out (even when I'm lucy enough to found my capital on a plains hills), or right after, the first civ I meet is already with 4-5 warriors and declares a surprise war on me. I can only survive 2-3 turns after that. It seems to be an impossible situation: as soon as I meet someone they denounce me (turn ~10) and a few turns later (~10-20) their army comes. It takes ~25 turns for a slinger.

Have any of you experienced something like this? I don't think there's much that can be done, since I can't even get more than one thing built by the time I lose. I found one video on youtube of deity marathon R&F game, but the guy is playing with mods such as start with a scout and a builder, so it's a completely different scenario.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

I usually play marathon -- it makes the game harder because unit movement is way faster than unit production -- which means you have to be prepared: no time to build an army after a war is declared. I also play on huge maps with the maximum number of civs allowed (20?), which means I'm always close to neighbor civs.

Not sure I would agree with that. Marathon increases the value of military units and the AI is inept at combat so you can really exploit this to your advantage, but I guess it might be tougher at the very beginning if they rush you. I've also wanted to try these game settings but on epic or normal speed. It does seem very difficult so I'd probably try it on emperor first.

 

[Melchizedek]

I'd suggest building a warrior first, and return your starting warrior to your city soon after meeting another civ. (Or even just keep it nearby to start with as a way to delay meeting them.) That way you can face a rush with a warrior in the city and a warrior fortified next to it. Switch them out if necessary. It might help fend off a warrior rush. Then, building a slinger after a warrior, you might even get some pillage opportunities and peace deal gold once their first wave is destroyed.

Another possibility is to take advantage of marathon by moving your starting settler. Getting hills is a good idea, and a few mountain and river tiles near your city can certainly slow down a rush. A good forest hill to fortify a warrior on is also quite a boon. If you settle on a luxury, you may be able to trade it and make friends instead of getting denounced/DOWed right away. Just some ideas for experimenting here; I don't know whether they'll work because I've never played these settings.

 

[Fornedhel]

Not sure I would agree with that. Marathon increases the value of military units and the AI is inept at combat so you can really exploit this to your advantage, but I guess it might be tougher at the very beginning if they rush you. I've also wanted to try these game settings but on epic or normal speed. It does seem very difficult so I'd probably try it on emperor first.

You're right about the advantage in terms of human better usage of a more valuable military compared to standard speed. What I meant was that if you get distracted or sloppy with your military production (which I often do in Pacific games ) and someone comes for you, there's no saving cause it takes way too long to train an army compared to take your cities.

I've switched to standard speed same settings otherwise, and the difference was so big that I had walls up (!) a couple turns after Alex declared on me (while at marathon I'd have produced a slinger and maybe a warrior at the same point).

So definitely if you're looking for challenge try those settings

I'd suggest building a warrior first, and return your starting warrior to your city soon after meeting another civ. (Or even just keep it nearby to start with as a way to delay meeting them.) That way you can face a rush with a warrior in the city and a warrior fortified next to it. Switch them out if necessary. It might help fend off a warrior rush. Then, building a slinger after a warrior, you might even get some pillage opportunities and peace deal gold once their first wave is destroyed.

Another possibility is to take advantage of marathon by moving your starting settler. Getting hills is a good idea, and a few mountain and river tiles near your city can certainly slow down a rush. A good forest hill to fortify a warrior on is also quite a boon. If you settle on a luxury, you may be able to trade it and make friends instead of getting denounced/DOWed right away. Just some ideas for experimenting here; I don't know whether they'll work because I've never played these settings.

Nice suggestions overall, not sure if they could work in practice. I tried the hide your civ approach before (=p) by parking my warrior in my city... Pedro found me at turn ~10 and mvemba a couple turns later. Mvemba wiped me out right after my first slinger. I haven't tried training a warrior first, but I should mention that a warrior usually takes ~3 turns longer, so in many of those games I'd lose without completing it!

I usually go for hills (plain hills is a huge help). Rivers are good, but situational. Forest helps the opposing army just as your defenders. I thought about the bribing solution, but haven't given it a try yet. I think it may be hard since often you start with a -6 modifier. The AI seems smart enough to realize you're a low hanging fruit.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

You're right about the advantage in terms of human better usage of a more valuable military compared to standard speed. What I meant was that if you get distracted or sloppy with your military production (which I often do in Pacific games ) and someone comes for you, there's no saving cause it takes way too long to train an army compared to take your cities.

Yeah I can see this being tough to overcome. Maybe epic would be a good middle ground. Have you tried building mostly scouts and maximizing gold tiles / CS? Huts and CS are probably tough to get as well since there are so many civs. Seems like the best bet would be to purchase a few units and take advantage of terrain. Purchasing a delegation or two to help against immediate neighbors and gifting a resource might help as well. Really you just have to survive long enough to get Magnus and a builder or two and his chop can help a lot I imagine.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Nice suggestions overall, not sure if they could work in practice.

You know what's proven in practice? Posting 4000BC save.

 

[Fornedhel]

You know what's proven in practice? Posting 4000BC save.

I'll try to post some saves, although as I said the point is that pretty much every game in that scenario seems an impossible situation, so if you wanna see for yourself you can just create one with: deity, marathon, huge map, max civs, any map that is not an isolated (island) start.

 

[Falabello]

@Fornedhel

Hi! I made an attempt. And this game is very POSSIBLE!

Things about this game:

- I’m a medium player, but can deal with Deity
- Never play Marathon before, so all those turns confuses me (1.500 )
- This was the #1 attempt. So, no reload, no cheat, no Mods, or something like that (just R&F)
- Created one: Deity, marathon, huge map, max civs, and Pangaea …
- Started a total random game and, by coincidence, Shaka was my leader
- Capital wasn’t good. But it doesn’t matter (also no three tiles to boost)
- Capital production: Scout, Settler, Monument. As you see, no worry with Units
- got a Builder from a Good Hut
- #2 City production: Monument…
- Lost my Scout and my Warrior to Barbs. I risked the two of them just because was a test game
- With this two Units, I also had a chance to a Golden Age
- It's Turn 73: Alexander came to my borders, but just to a visit (purchased a Warrior for precaution)
- Started with Slingers just when I was close to Craftsmanship (Agoge)
- Finally, your problem, WAR – but then it’s about Turn 90 (don't remember right)
- Gitarja attacked me then, but just to lose their Units (And I lost one Slinger, nothing more…)
- Being attacked by an AI is not so bad – got experience and an important boost
- So, it’s my time to attack (Turn 111): 5 Archers and 1 Warrior (made a second after) – She had no chance
- Three cities, luxuries and 1 Settler, nothing bad …
- My Army can still conquer some Persian cities
- Now it’s time for 50% production: Magnus (with a promotion) is ready to help with some fast Settlers – need five as in the picture (Turn 136)
- Next step: a Great General, beeline to 50% upgrade and about nine Heavy Chariots will be strong Knights with one RAM
- Never play with Shaka before: the idea of an Impi Corps Army must be studied
- Stop the game as Marathon scares me …

 

[Fornedhel]

@Fornedhel

Hi! I made an attempt. And this game is very POSSIBLE!

Things about this game:

- I’m a medium player, but can deal with Deity
- Never play Marathon before, so all those turns confuses me (1.500 )
- This was the #1 attempt. So, no reload, no cheat, no Mods, or something like that (just R&F)
- Created one: Deity, marathon, huge map, max civs, and Pangaea …
- Started a total RNG game and, by coincidence, Shaka was my leader
- Capital wasn’t good. But it doesn’t matter (also no three tiles to boost)
- Capital production: Scout, Settler, Monument. As you see, no worry with Units
- got a Builder from a Good Hut
- #2 City production: Monument…
- Lost my Scout and my Warrior to Barbs. I risked the two of them just because was a test game
- With this two Units, I also had a chance to a Golden Age
- It's Turn 73: Alexander came to my borders, but just to a visit (purchased a Warrior for precaution)
- Started with Slingers just when I was close to Craftsmanship (Agoge)
- Finally, your problem, WAR – but then it’s about Turn 90 (don't remember right)
- Gitarja attacked me then, but just to lose their Units (And I lost one Slinger, nothing more…)
- Being attacked by an AI is not so bad – got experience and an important boost
- So, it’s my time to attack (Turn 111): 5 Archers and 1 Warrior (made a second after) – She had no chance
- Three cities, luxuries and 1 Settler, nothing bad …
- My Army can still conquer some Persian cities
- Now it’s time for 50% production: Magnus (with a promotion) is ready to help with some fast Settlers – need five as in the picture (Turn 136)
- Next step: a Great General, beeline to 50% upgrade and about nine Heavy Chariots will be strong Knights with one RAM
- Never play with Shaka before: the idea of an Impi Corps Army must be studied
- Stop the game as Marathon scares me …

Nice! But this seems completely different from my experience, if you got dow only on turn 73 (I'm usually dead or severely crippled by then). When did you meet your neighbors? Maybe you got lucky with the city states as a buffer? Were you the first to meet Stocholm and Muscat? Did you bribe them when you meet them?

 

[Falabello]

I met Alexander and Gitarja soon in the beginnig. Then Tomyris and Cyrus. The others with my Scout. Alexander denounced me soon, but didn't attack me...
Wasn't the first for both City States. Tomirys took Muscat, but Alex liberated it. Didn't care with CS. The only luck was a Builder got from GH

 

[Falabello]

@Fornedhel

BTW, I don't know your experience about Deity games. BUT, fell free to continue this game with the save (if applicable) .
There are some advantages here:
- the location in the corner, then you don't worry with an unexpected war
- Magnus prepared for Settlers (IIRC I traded two new luxuries for Gold enough to buy other wood tiles...)
- and a new city's location (northwest of Bulawaio) with several woods for the Heavy Chariots with Magnus

Also, I (and others) can help you in this long journey (again, as the case may be...)