Deity Strategy: How to defend this?

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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Dec 31, 2005
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Could use some advice. I've been getting slammed in Medieval from large deity armies, so its time to rethink my defenses.

Spoiler :

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On the new patch the AI is double declaring in medieval very consistently. I've got Spain hitting my water to the south, and China from the north.

I used a Portugal GG to shore up Coimbra (or tried to at least). Its completely open desert so I didn't really have options there.

Leira I think is in a decent place, that treeline is holding up most of the ranged fire, I just couldn't get enough troops there with Spain also hitting me.

Funchal I think is solid, I could hold an eastern attack pretty well.

Braga is probably my worst defensive city, and if I were to do it again I would have gone one more hex north west on that hill. But it hasn't been attacked yet so its not a problem.

So any thoughts on defensive positions would be appreciated. Also if you look at my turn count (on Standard Speed), for a defensive progress game (aka not looking to go offensive), how many troops do you normally field at this point in the game? I'm starting to feel I should abandon all buildings except Monument + Shrine + Walls and just make troops until my supply is maxxed, is that how the deity players do it?
 
Your screenshot shows no ranged units. Is there a particular reason that your army is so heavily melee units?

I'm starting to feel I should abandon all buildings except Monument + Shrine + Walls and just make troops until my supply is maxxed, is that how the deity players do it?
That is not how I do it. I think this approach would really hurt your science when moving towards later eras.

Just one observation, Porto is already at 11 pop but has no council yet. You probably wanted more production and less food earlier on. This could have led to more science and fewer happiness problems, which I think would improve your overall situation.

Nice to see that you're taking on Deity BTW.
 
Your screenshot shows no ranged units. Is there a particular reason that your army is so heavily melee units?
--There are a few in the south fighting off naval ships, but yeah I am probably a bit melee heavy. I was building swordsmen to take advantage of my iron.

Just one observation, Porto is already at 11 pop but has no council yet. You probably wanted more production and less food earlier on. This could have led to more science and fewer happiness problems, which I think would improve your overall situation.
--Portugal already had a good science engine so I was ignoring the science buildings in favor of more production and culture, as I already had more buildings to build than hammers to make them with. That said, I do tend to ignore councils when playing progress for too long.

What do you think of my city positions? Are they reasonable or did I just leave myself open too much?
 
Settle on hills, manipulate the terrain so your ranged units can shoot but the enemy can't by chopping forests. Set up forts/citadels.
Horsemen/knights to keep the exposed catapults and trebuchets outside of your city range, from my personal experience you shouldn't be afraid to throw away horses to make sure you can knock out siege-weapons as without siege-weapons your city wont fall, and any war that drags on generally favors the player.
 
Also, in general, settling so many cities that you're bordering on the 35% happiness level is really bad for defending. Especially if you're playing progress
 
What do you think of my city positions? Are they reasonable or did I just leave myself open too much?
They are reasonable. I can see why you settled where you did, you wanted that natural wonder and you want the tiles your pantheon supports.

I think this position is just tough, not resulting from any major mistake the player made. 3 hostile neighbors, religious disputes and land that isn't great. Flat floodplains are awful to defend, and especially with progress you got to lock growth.

I'm curious if you did left or right progress first, and what your religion is
 
Like CrazyG said, this is a very tough terrain to defend, but still, a few thing I would have focused on in this (perhaps you did some/most of them, I can't see from the screenshot):
- in such a hard-to-defend terrain, you have to sacrifice city quality for defensability, so I'd settle Coimbra a bit more south (maybe between oasis and lapis lazuli) so that enemy forces would have to cross the river before getting adjacent to Coimbra, giving me a bit more breathing room to defend), and I wouldn't settle both Leira and Braga, but instead just one city on the 5-food farm west of an oasis, because there rivers would help you and you'd be a bit farther from other civs, giving you a bit more space, and I'd settle that "missing city" on the coast west of Lisbon
- in such hard terrain, defensive use of skirmisher is paramount! I would have built a network of roads leading up to rivers to make sure my skirmishers can rotate when attacking the AI units, forgoing so many swordsmen,
- if the Spanish cities to the south are satellites, I'd focus settling there instead of the desert cities, because it's easier to defend a well-placed coastal city than such open desert cities, especially if you have access to Naus
- I would have gone Tradition (in case I'd decide to settle fewer cities) and picked Orders as my first followers because of extra defense and because I'd expect a very hostile game with such surrounding civs and terrain
 
Not a deity player, but my sense is Progress and expanding into this desert might not be the best way to use Portugal in this situation. Nothing in their kit supports extra inland cities. You have 0/3 TRs running and big happiness problems in the screenshot. Would it work better to focus on your coastal economy first, then us GGs to conquer and puppet AI cities in that territory?

As for city placement, I think your two northern cities are indefensible as border cities, unless you invest a defensive GG in each. Otherwise you'll need a big army to defend the border, and might as well go on the offensive. 7/17 supply usually doesn't work for long in a case like this.
 
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So you are getting hit by multiple issues here. You have a large flat open area and lots of cities in it. This is both hard to defend and close to multiple players, making the defence is harder. I'm not sure it is possible to settle these cities and have enough units to defend them. I'm really not a fan of progress for pretty much exactly this issue.

Open four city authority and you can take the natural wonder if you want, and it would let you pull your cities back making it a lot less likely for you to get dog piled. It isn't impossible to go progress but it is harder and requires a lot of trial and error to see what you can get away with. It is a good way to learn but it does involve getting killed a lot.
 
The terrain is kind of bad for defence, also need much more ranged units (always more range then melee, you just block with melee while ranged kills for the most part --exception for having an early strong uu). Does Porto even have walls? It doesnt look like it. Its an important city with Iron, that is about to be pillaged.

Funchal and Coimbra looks ok.
Braga is okish. I assume it was settled for the wonder.

Porto is a coastal town without walls, it has more then one tile open to the sea which is bad.

Unknown city south of Porto (capital?). Or is Porto the capital? I forget.

Leira is kinda bad, ok two luxuries. I would have put it two tiles back.

Im missing a city on the right side of the three tile lake. The lake becomes an excellent choke-point.

Desert warfare. You want to pull their units into the desert and open space and kill them with range. Not letting them sit in the safety of the woods and hills. Take Leira, if it was two tiles back the enemy have to cross rivers, leave forrest and had to stand exposed in the desert. Now they instead are in decent attack position and can just take woodsman or amphibious and have a great time attacking you.

There is no road to the Coimbra citadel so you couldnt defend that. Also in flat lands such as this forts are good. To funnel the AI units.

Council in Coimbra before walls?

Why have you not locked pop in Coimbra? Funchal and Leira ...

Your army is about half the size it should be. Swordmen are a sink if you dont plan to attack. Ranged and spears is where it is at iron and horses are mostly for selling. Germany is friend and pay flat gold for it to be used to buy an army. Not so much now thou do to the massive unhappiness.

If you think its bad now just wait until Denmark attacks with their berserkers.

For the last few patches it would appear the ai favors large swarm attacks -- which makes ranged chokepoint defence even better.
 
I'm guessing you had all 3 trade routes built but they got pillaged due to war. In this situation, we can predict that war with any of our neighbors is likely so we should consider internal routes. China (and I'm assuming Spain) have different religions than Portugal Denmark is Denmark so war is likely.

AI also have an increased proclivity to war while the UU is active, and all 3 have medieval UUs. So, we can anticipate that war is likely and consider moving our trade routes away as a result. (to be fair I think this start is going to have a difficult medieval era no matter what you do).

Furthermore, I think that internal production routes are the best choice regardless of war considerations. Those outer cities really need production.

I think that a lack of production (and science) is hurting more than city placement here.
Unknown city south of Porto (capital?). Or is Porto the capital? I forget.
The capital city for Portugal defaults to Lisbon, which I'm guessing is the south city.
 
Stalker0, can you share a T0 (or the earliest one) save with us? This looks very interesting and I'd like to give it a try. And if yes, which mods have you used in this game? Thank you!
 
The capital city for Portugal defaults to Lisbon, which I'm guessing is the south city.

I realized when I look at it now that Porto doesn't have the silverstar by the name so I should have known it wasn't the capital. I just couldn't recall which the starting Portuguese city was, long time since I played them I guess.

I assume he did have trade routes, one appears to have been plundered this turn according to the icons on the side. There should have been some internal routes tho far from the fronts, or I guess to one of the two city states to the right and below, unless they are hostile to. Also isn't it Portugal that gets yields as trade routes moves? I seem to recall that. I don't recall now exactly what yields, or if, but it could have been a source of a lot of the yields that now then sort of disappeared which in turn makes the situation a lot worse but it could be somewhat quickly rectified if the war just ended. (edit2) +4 sci/gold and ga or gg points per turn per route, so it would have fixed a lot of the yield issues -- building a council that grants 1 sci is by comparison quite low and not something one should go for in this case.

(edit)
If one looks more in depth at it both Braga and Funchal have defensive issues.

None of the cities are located on top of hills. But could have been but are instead behind hills. So your ranged can only attack one tile out, unless you want to waste promotions to compensate for that.

Braga. It's behind the hills. Great in some way, super bad in another. The hills two tiles north of the city can be used to bombard the city more or less risk free. The tile two tiles east of the city can be used in a similar fashion. It would have been better if the city had been on top of the hills next to the river (that would have screwed a bit with the location of Leiria tho since it would otherwise be to close, but it would open the back position of being behind the lapis and next to the lake).

Funchal has the same issue. The tile with the danish spearman and chinese worker can be used to bombard the city but can't be easily hit back to. The city should have been placed on top of the hill between the incense and the hill with the forest (the forest hill is also an option for placement, but I would value it less).

As mentioned in the other post you want to drag the enemy into the desert so they get movement issues and then bombard them from range. As it is now they attack you and when they are hurt they retreat and you can't really do anything about that. So you get none of the benefits really.


Porto, seeing what I see I would probably have placed it where you placed it to. Even tho it breaks my rule of just having one exposed sea tile. It's the second city so it should be strong enough to repell a sea invasion. The alternative position would have been to place it right on top of the wheat. There is still enough good food tiles around, it would have minimized exposure to the sea.

Coimbra should also have been placed on the hill to the west, if that doesn't interfere with the city-state range. Resources in range3 from a city are nice but shouldn't really be counted on. As noted in a war like this they are the first to go anyway. It would still have had all the stones and lapis and you could have citadelled in the same place to grab the horses and other lapis source -- even tho I don't think I would have. The citadel would have probably been a lot better somewhere around Braga or Leiria -- somewhat depending on placement of the cities. Such as the wood where the Trib is placed. Putting it smack in the middle of the two cities. It would cover the north of Braga and the south of Leiria. Reshaping the attack vector of China. Coimbra has all that desert that makes an attack from that direction somewhat unlikely or a complete drag movement wise. So even without the citadel I do belive the AI would have attack Leiria first, after that probably Braga and then Coimbra.

Being right next to the river is nice. But what is even nicer is having the AI have to cross the river before they can attack and not just attack across the river. It really messes with their movement since when they have to move back they can only take one step and then they are out of movement again for crossing the river and can be shot in the back as they retreat. They don't get the attack across river penalty for their city attack tho but that is commonly negated by just picking the amphibious promotion.
 
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Looking at your provided Screenshot, I have some serious doubt about the position of your cities.
Especially Leira is at questionable position for me. Why did you found it?
To get the lapiz, the citron and iron?
It is at a very vulnerable position to the north. Border to three desert tiles with 2 of them having 2 plain forest tiles behind, the last another desert.
What that means there can sit three catapults 2 tiles away and you only can reach it with an horse man in the city. If there is a melee unit on the north eastern hill, there will be even a ZOC on a desert tile.
Your walled city can just shoot 2 tiles away to west, in the east the forest blocks it to 1 tile range. With that position, the enemy can bring his melee units through the (hilled) forests from the north east and shoot the city from the north west.

In my opinion you should have either settled on the south eastern Floodplain or on that forest (on a hill?).
But then you would had to place Braga and Funchal one tile lower too.
In that case I would have placed Braga between the oasis, natural wonder and the sheep. Not sure if it is now founded on plain Desert.
Funchal should have been in that case on the coast. I just dont like cities one tile away from the sea. Sure you have a UI for the coast, but it would just be one less.
In that location, a big amount of the potential tiles for Funchal is just useless 2 :c5food: sea tiles, you sacrifice way too many and important buildings which are needed for coastal cities.

Instead of founding both Leira and Braga, I would just have settled one city north west of Braga on the desert hill. Your northern cities lack generally in :c5production:.
With that city you would have a hill start, a good wheat tile with the pantheon, one extra tile to grow and a 1 :c5food: and 2 :c5production: tile plus 2 hills.
Further, your city would have a range of 2 tiles, while it cant be attacked from 2 tiles from the north, not without a promotion.
The city would covered both the lapiz and the citron. The lapiz would be quite save to get, with the citron you probably would anyways have to race for it with Xian.
But it would be easily coverable with a citadel placed on the south eastern tile of the citrus and would make an approach from the north tougher.
If you get more and more GGs there is still the possibilty to place one directly west of the horse owned by viborg, securing an additional ressource and being in a good position for defence, because enemy units would end their turn next to it, like with the other.

The iron to get is very tough and should be not planed to get for sure at all with the placement of Xian. Was Xian settled later than Leira?
It is still available with a citadel and to be honest, your one GG for that citadel by Coimbra should have gone to Leira north west of the citrus.
It would have secured the iron and would hurt all units coming from the north because of the forest hills.
But that position would be also possible with Braga settled one to north west. You wouldnt be able to work that tile, but would have the iron.
In generally it is not so good to count with strategics directly on your third or even forth ring, because they will get pillaged very quickly. The same situation which happened with your placed one.

In short, Leira, the city you are losing, wasnt a good choice to settle in first place.
Thats for your north eastern border.
Lets have a look on Coimbra.

As I see it, your were trying to steal as much lapiz from China (or whos starting monopoly is lapiz?) as possible, your luxury monopol starting ressource seems to be incense.
It seems to me that you placed Coimbra there to get the lapiz in the south west, east of the city state. In the north, it looks like you secured 3 desert stone tiles and one lapiz on hills.
So Coimbra has just the desert hill, the one lapiz in north on the hill and some desert stone as production, but a lot of flood plains. And as it looks like you worked a lot of them, because it is already at 6 :c5citizen:.
You build 2 farms there, but not one mine on the hill, depending on your production to the top, from where china might come and possibly pillaging those. Further, because all that is desert, it would take longer to repair. Im not sure, did you build quarries on the stone tiles there?

I would have 2 suggestions.
Settle Coimbra one tile to the north west on the stone tile, south east of the lapiz desert hill. You would still have access to the same production.
But at the same time, 2 of those lapiz in workable range of the third ring plus the wheat and the horse on top of it. Probably those tiles would only be available via the use of a citadel.
From a defense perspective, would better block the lapiz hill, because now, that one desert stone tile right north of your current position would be automatically improved with a road from the city, so you can easily hit the desert to the west, the lapiz and the stone to north.
The major defensible problem of that general location there is, that the floodplains and the river in north eastern direction is easy terrain for an invader from that direction.
To effiently hold that city, you have to have a beefy unit east of Coimbra anyways, you dont want to have that tile occupied by an enemy anyways. Right now, sth like a swordmen would completely block of your road connection to Coimbra.

Further it would open up a viable city location between Porto and Coimbra east of the lapiz. That city would have the incense in workable range too. In fact, that massive floodplain two stream land can easily feed three cities, all with juicy adjacent bonus farms.
Last but not least that city would have a good tile north west of the lapiz for a citadel with a road and would steal the luxury of that city state.
Regarding Portugal specifically, that City so near to a city state, maybe saved up with said citadel, would give you a very save trade route, if you can keep the City state neutral or allied to you.
You get yields for moving, not for the distance, so short trade routes dont hurt Portugal.

The second suggestion would be to give up on those four northern and just settle a city next to the lapiz. You some production and the lapiz plain hill and the forest would provide it, the river in the north seems to make the enemy end his turn anyway there.
With Braga settled on the north west desert hill position, you would have 2 lapiz copies, one for yourself and one for trade.
Sure, all that desert ressources look tempting with the Desert Spirit pantheon, but Coimbra lose its pantheon anyway or was settled after you got your religion

So in short, you would just have one city on your north eastern border and maybe 2 on your north western border. Desert is best to defend if you set up your roads so you can circle your archers through to shoot your enemies 2 desert tiles away.
Additionally, I would have used the GG for the citadel on another position. If you cant maintain it for some rounds, you are quite wasting its power.
If you really wanted to use it mostly for defense, placing it right next to your city, connected with a road would be the best position.

Im not sure how the south of your empire looks in that southern coast line, so I cant give any usefull advice there, maybe Funchal would have been to tough to defend there.
But settling it on the iron might be not that bad, securing its ressources from pillaging, only having one coast adjacent and the iron would have blocked your UI anyways.


Besides the position of your cities, what was your tech route? Did you tried Petra? As Portugal, gunning for Petra is worth a try, an extra trade route, a free one, and pumped up flood plains seem to justify going for risks.
On the other hand, did you consider going for Great Wall after you have discovered your surrounding area? As bad desert might be to defend, it can be a pain to attack. With Great Wall those northern cities might be better to defend and you will probably place a lot of citadels.
Great Walls and Citadels together are always awesome, because your citadels will always take a bloody price.
 
Within the bounds of what i can see in the screen shot...the terrain available obviously makes it more difficult to set up porper kill zones but a few things i would have done to maximise defense would be:-
-I would have put Funchal on the plain hill next to the city so that it could fire two tiles over the hills to the east towards Denmark while restricting Denmark to 1 tile line of sight. Would have still got the iron and possibly even the horses before Denmark to restrict their access to horses while giving you some horses for defense although the horses would be vulnerable to pillaging but 4 ranged in the city and surrounding hills would likely deal with most pillaging attempts.
-Braga/Lieria i would have probably merged into one city with it being placed two tiles left of Braga in between the two rivers. The lapis and Old faithfull would still have been in range with no way Denmark could use old faithful as it is outside of the range of Viborg and another city would not be possible in the area to claim it.
-Placing Combrai on the hill next to it is an option but from what i can see the river surrounds the city so you have two rivers to the east and desert to the north which should slow down the AI significantly.

If i wanted to have the extra city i would have put Braga on the floodplain surrounded by the river to the east, wheat to the north and oasis to the east. It's not a defendable but you do have desert to the north east and two rivers to the west to really slow down the enemy and good field of fire.
I would have then moved Lieria 1 tile left which puts you in the middle of the desert but you would have the initial tree line and then have to cross rivers and desert to reach the city.

A big issues is your apparent lack of horses which make a huge difference in terrain like this where skirmishers in particular can run rampant against the enemy but beside that for defence ranged units are generally much more important and as already discussed you are lacking ranged.
Rule of thumb for me is one ranged per border city and idealy two and then with a good road network you can rush spare ranged to whichever city is under attack, lining them up in safety behind the city then you can have 3 or 4 ranged units plus the city devastating any units getting within two tiles of your city.

As a rule of thumb i tend to focus on killing melee units on defense as they can't take a city without melee units and the AI will tend to withdraw (as it should do) if it has no melee to protect it's ranged units. If i am looking to counter attack then i focus more on the enemy ranged units as ranged rule on defense.
 
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