[R&F] Deity Training, Benchmarks and Early Game.

[i_imperator]

Hi all,

Id like to improve my game so I can play and beat deity level and Id like to know some benchmarks for it.
What do I need to do to defend myself in the early game? I know that the AI's have a tendency to rush the human player and if that doesn't happen barbs can ruin you. I normally play at King/Emperor level but id like to jump up and beat deity.

When should you expand and what is the best way to do so? I know this is situational, considering peace or war. But id like to see optimal strategies for both.

What are good benchmarks for Deity? I know you want to have about 8-10 cities by t100 in a normal game. But id also like to know in terms of culture and science per turn. Any other tips would be appreciated.

I have attached a Rome Save file for feedback and for others to play along.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I think that many of us have difference of opinions because we all play on different settings.
It kinda messes up the benchmarks to a point.
Many of us play by different rules as well which makes things completely different.
If you are willing to abuse the AI with trades it will effect your game compared to someone who won't do such things.
I used to take advantage of the Art/Relic Trade Bug because I found it funny.
After awhile it made the game too silly so I refuse to trade Art or Relics to the AI anymore.
However I have bought Art from the AI so I am not playing a clean game.
I also like to steal settlers and builders from the AI which can be very abusive as well.
A player willing to steal settlers is going to have much faster benchmarks.

Many of your questions are answered through this forum and on Youtube as well.
I admit that much of it is older because the game keeps changing on us to a point.
Even though the game mechanic doesn't play completely optimal I do like to watch his games.
This is because he plays close to my settings sorta and he plays all the time.
He live streams Monday through Friday and posts them up later on Youtube.
Although his starts seem to be amazing all the time though.
It seems he has lots of trees, jungles and hills in every game so that doesn't help me so much because I spawn in much worse starts.
Skimming through can help and you are going to learn something.
He also plays with a CS Wall Mod so that will change the game as well.

My settings are almost always the same.
I play Deity Standard/Standard Pangaea Map and usually all random for personal fun.
As stated before by much better players this game will change on you from map to map.
Some games you will find a bunch of CS's that the AI didn't roll and other times you might have a problem finding the 3 you need for a boost.
This is a huge difference if you are the first to find a Science and or a Culture CS first.

The best advice is to understand your situation.
Are you in the middle of the map getting boxed in by multiple AIs?
If so you are going to want to go full military and fight it out!
Do you have Horses or Iron? Not so easy when you don't have them and many of my games I do not!
Nothing worse than Rushing Knights and going to upgrade and you realize you have no Iron and the AI doesn't have multiple copies LOL!!
Also when you war it up you want to make sure you pick the right neighbor to roll because I noticed in one of my games I had a problem.
I had a large army with 6-8 horses, 3 archers, 3 warriors and Korea had a ton of modifiers making it near impossible to break through.
She didn't even have walls up but the modifiers were brutal making me have to peace out.
If I would of fought Arabia next door it would of been much easier so you have to recognize who is the easier targets.
Other games I have rolled Korea with ease so it is a matter of land. timing and modifiers.

Nothing can help you more than flat out experience.
I find that watching better players helps second and reading third.
It is still going to go horrible wrong when you get in the game by yourself though
Have Fun, Keep Playing and don't worry as soon as you get the hang of this game they will make Civ VII for you to buy!

 

[BarbarianHunter]

However I have bought Art from the AI so I am not playing a clean game.

The AI is not known for its favorable trade deals. How is this exploitive? If you have the gold, why not?

I also like to steal settlers and builders from the AI which can be very abusive as well.

I like doing this as well. Generally, I know the nearest 2 AI will get around to attacking me sooner or later. Usually sooner. Why let them build for a future attack? Why not steal the builder and use it to build defense forces? In fact, with the lack of diplomatic penalties in the ancient era I'll trade the AI a lux or 2 for all its gold, then steal the builder. I have terrible luck stealing settlers (everyone seems able to do it but me). Even if I don't have any lux resources to trade I can offer the AI all my gold per turn (say like 10) for a lump sum gold payment (say like 300 gold). Then I declare war, cancelling the 10 gold per turn agreement, and leaving me with the 300 gold . It is war.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I am not saying it is a bad thing or strategy but it is what is considered gamey or abusive to the AI.
I don't mind abusing the AI but after you get bored of that you may or may not start to play with "certain" rules.

I don't know if the trade bug still works for the art deals but you used to be able to get massive everything from the AI on the same turn you get a Great Work.
I just decided to stop doing that for my games since it was getting a little silly for me that is.
Sorta like in Civ V when you could trade a city or two for the AI's whole empire... it loses some sort of realism.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler Rome :

I played the OP's Rome Game up till turn 115 now.
This map is fun but seems a little OP from what I am used to.
It is very rare that I roll a map with two NWs so close and the start seems very safe.
I did get invaded by massive barbs and you can see that in one of the screenshots which slowed me down some.
I made a ton of mistakes because you sorta have a lot of choices in this game.

I am trying to focus on keeping my population low.
Nothing above 7 pop hopefully.
Trade has been easy to say the least.
Plenty of Luxuries on this map and I am pretty friendly with most of the AI.
I was able to steal one settler from Poland and you can see that in a screenshot as well.
I got Germany in on the two wars with Poland because that just makes sense.
I don't think they helped too much and they don't like me anymore after I took some cities and Warsaw.

My Build Order:
Scout, Builder, Settler, Slinger, Trade Route... Army.
As usual not very focused and I had to start building Army as I was weak with the Barbs dancing on my Capital.
After that I did get Carthage from Poland but had to make peace until Xbows and Knights.
I was able to get a GG for the Medieval War.
I had to chop that in a couple of times to make sure.
Since I have Harvest and I noticed the map was safe I decided to get a Religion.
I took Choral Music and Defender because I don't like the AI to get Defender of the Faith.
I decided to use all the faith for buying settlers and builders and worry about spreading my Religion later.
I was thinking of going for a RV since I haven't done it but as usual I am geared towards Domination.

Instead of killing Poland I decided to make peace so I didn't lose a unit or two.
Those other cities didn't have much that I could see.
I did get Stonehenge and Hanging Gardens so that is a plus.
I can kill them later and I might just start in on Germany.
I do need 5 more Era Points for my second Golden Age which might be a problem.
As usual I missed my first Golden Age by 1 point but got over 25 points on the next one.
I am really bad at being anything close to optimal.

I did manage to get 11 cities up by turn 100 with a settler on the way and I'm about to take another city from Poland.

On turn 115 I have 17 cities.
Not great compared to most of the players on this forum but decent for me.

Spoiler Rome 40 & 83 :

Spoiler Rome 100-115 :

 

[i_imperator]

I am not saying it is a bad thing or strategy but it is what is considered gamey or abusive to the AI.
I don't mind abusing the AI but after you get bored of that you may or may not start to play with "certain" rules.

I don't know if the trade bug still works for the art deals but you used to be able to get massive everything from the AI on the same turn you get a Great Work.
I just decided to stop doing that for my games since it was getting a little silly for me that is.
Sorta like in Civ V when you could trade a city or two for the AI's whole empire... it loses some sort of realism.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler Rome :

I played the OP's Rome Game up till turn 115 now.
This map is fun but seems a little OP from what I am used to.
It is very rare that I roll a map with two NWs so close and the start seems very safe.
I did get invaded by massive barbs and you can see that in one of the screenshots which slowed me down some.
I made a ton of mistakes because you sorta have a lot of choices in this game.

I am trying to focus on keeping my population low.
Nothing above 7 pop hopefully.
Trade has been easy to say the least.
Plenty of Luxuries on this map and I am pretty friendly with most of the AI.
I was able to steal one settler from Poland and you can see that in a screenshot as well.
I got Germany in on the two wars with Poland because that just makes sense.
I don't think they helped too much and they don't like me anymore after I took some cities and Warsaw.

My Build Order:
Scout, Builder, Settler, Slinger, Trade Route... Army.
As usual not very focused and I had to start building Army as I was weak with the Barbs dancing on my Capital.
After that I did get Carthage from Poland but had to make peace until Xbows and Knights.
I was able to get a GG for the Medieval War.
I had to chop that in a couple of times to make sure.
Since I have Harvest and I noticed the map was safe I decided to get a Religion.
I took Choral Music and Defender because I don't like the AI to get Defender of the Faith.
I decided to use all the faith for buying settlers and builders and worry about spreading my Religion later.
I was thinking of going for a RV since I haven't done it but as usual I am geared towards Domination.

Instead of killing Poland I decided to make peace so I didn't lose a unit or two.
Those other cities didn't have much that I could see.
I did get Stonehenge and Hanging Gardens so that is a plus.
I can kill them later and I might just start in on Germany.
I do need 5 more Era Points for my second Golden Age which might be a problem.
As usual I missed my first Golden Age by 1 point but got over 25 points on the next one.
I am really bad at being anything close to optimal.

I did manage to get 11 cities up by turn 100 with a settler on the way and I'm about to take another city from Poland.

On turn 115 I have 17 cities.
Not great compared to most of the players on this forum but decent for me.

Spoiler Rome 40 & 83 :

View attachment 509255

View attachment 509256

Spoiler Rome 100-115 :

View attachment 509252
View attachment 509253
View attachment 509254

This is the type of result id like to replicate, but I always seem to get bogged down in my management and decision making. I find it very difficult to get knights at a good time even on emperor.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I am not saying it is a bad thing or strategy but it is what is considered gamey or abusive to the AI.
I don't mind abusing the AI but after you get bored of that you may or may not start to play with "certain" rules.

I don't know if the trade bug still works for the art deals but you used to be able to get massive everything from the AI on the same turn you get a Great Work.
I just decided to stop doing that for my games since it was getting a little silly for me that is.

Oh. That bug. Yeah, I don't use it either. I thought you were saying buying art from the AI was not clean. Who knows, to some maybe it's not.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

This is the type of result id like to replicate, but I always seem to get bogged down in my management and decision making. I find it very difficult to get knights at a good time even on emperor.

Spoiler Rome 115-140 :

If you keep working at it you will get the hang of it.
I still struggle to get them out fast.
This game I got them at around turn 105 because I went for Machinery First.
This is because I didn't rush Feudalism and I didn't get the boost for that civic either.
Too busy doing other stuff that isn't optimal or just the wrong moves/clicks basically.
Missing that first Golden Age really hurts.
I think being able to Faith Buy in the Classical Age is huge!

One thing about this map is all the chops.
I chopped most of my land by turn 140 now.
Not sure if I wasted Harvest on too many Builders and Settlers.
I went with a very late Government Build and still can't faith buy Army.
Other players most likely would of won this game by now

I got into a war with Germany and only managed to take one of his cities.
I need Bombards to break through.
I am kinda all over the place with no real plan.
I am rushing Flight now but why?
Am I really going for a CV?
I also put a bunch of points into Moksha but am I really going to try for a RV?

So my game isn't very good to learn from because it is all over the place with unfocused direction.
Basically I just DoFed most of the Civs except Poland and I invaded them
{Insert any and all Polish Jokes here}

I am not sure if Faith Buying a bunch of Settlers and Builders is better than storing it up for Great People.
I just wanted a bunch of cities for the free monuments and what not but now I have no real plan.
The best way to put it is that my game is Sloppy but I don't reload or replay the maps because that isn't fun for me.
Sometimes I forget to chop the walls in with one turn to go and Magnus and that hurts.
I also faith bought 4 or 5 builders without the builder card inserted and that really hurts!

Spoiler Rome 141 North & South :

 

[Fluphen Azine]

This is nothing new to most players but kinda new for me.
I am starting to realize the more farms, marshes and rice you have to chop early, the stronger your game will be.
That is to say if you don't mind chopping the map down.
Some players play with a no chop rule but I have yet to implement such a rule.

I never really played chopping farms and such.
I would improve them and forget about them.
You can really break the game pretty quick by chopping for growth.
You may want to not sell as many resources by doing this though to stay happy.
I am not sure what problems arise with housing.
I had a game just now where my expo was 8/3 housing but I didn't notice it hampering anything.

I was reading that players feel you shouldn't be able to chop such things like Farms, Copper, Marshes and what not.
I see the point because it really propels your game into a blitz.
However Chops have always been a part of Civ so not sure you want to banish them.

I was reading that Victoria would rather chop a tree compared to a marsh and I agree but chopping out a couple marshes moving from 1 pop to 6 pop in the mater of a couple of turns is kinda sick.
I couldn't understand why I wasn't getting to Knights as fast as other players but I realize that chopping out population is a key factor.
It shaves off 10-20 turns.

Of course I have played games where I hardly chop and still win with ease but it comes much later. (100-150 turns later)

 

[Victoria]

What are good benchmarks for Deity?

Government by T50 ish, Feudalism by 70 ish, knights by 80 ish.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I was reading that players feel you shouldn't be able to chop such things like Farms, Copper, Marshes and what not.
I see the point because it really propels your game into a blitz.
However Chops have always been a part of Civ so not sure you want to banish them.

Forest chopping has been around ages in Civ, but harvesting bonuses resources is pretty new. Not only could you not harvest them in Civ 4, they were often far and away the best tiles to work for most of the game so Civ 6 is pretty different in this regard.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Forest chopping has been around ages in Civ, but harvesting bonuses resources is pretty new. Not only could you not harvest them in Civ 4, they were often far and away the best tiles to work for most of the game so Civ 6 is pretty different in this regard.

You have valid points.

IIRC you are kinda against the Civ VI game as a whole?

I am not sure it is fair to compare Civ IV, Civ V or Civ VI to one another since they are all three completely different games.
You also have that hybrid of Civ V that they call Beyond Earth.
Although the core of each game feels the same.
Just take for instance your beloved Civ IV, (yes I watched many of your youtube videos years ago on the game).

In Civ IV you could use Slavery to Whip your Population into shape.
Stacks of Doom are completely different compared to Civ V and Civ VI.

I bought Civ VI on the first day of release.
I basically hated it.
I hated the look, feel and game play after over 5 years of Civ V.
However just like I played many years of Beyond the Sword I made the transition to V.
Same with Civ VI... I gave up V because it got old and less MP games.
I played MP for the first year of VI and went back to SP for the second year.
I had about a 6 month period or so where I didn't play Civ VI but Rise and Fall brought me back.
Game is kinda fun but gets silly. I didn't realize how powerful harvesting really is until recently.
Chopping out Marshes, Farms, Copper and what not is super strong.
However it doesn't matter. Even if you don't do all that I notice the AI can hardly tech in this version of Civ.
Even if the AI does have you dominated on Tech for the first two thirds of the game they don't do anything with it.
Next factor in how the game plays like my Iphone version of Civ Rev and it gets worse.
You have tanks and all the AI has is Xbows and many times now no walls.
This makes you want to play with certain rules but I don't like that option either.

Civ V had the Science Overflow option until they finally fixed it somewhat years and years after release.
Production Overflow was always an option as well.
However in Civ VI the game is all about Chop Overflow.
They beg you to use it not only with chops but they add in a Governor to make your chops even more super than they already are!
You guys have a point to take away harvesting but they are never going to take away Chops and Magnus.
I can't see them taking away the Harvest Pantheon and that thing is so strong when you have it with Monumentality Golden Ages it almost makes you want to never use it.

Anyways, nice to see you still around the boards and having some interest in this version of Civ.

 

[i_imperator]

I have completed this game but I did so on Emperor on quick speed, which I enjoyed greatly. I played a deity run to turn 80 and did decently. But for the moment I think I will stick with emperor as its a relaxing and enjoyable difficulty for me. I won a space victory so I hope to bring this game into Stellaris as the Space Romans.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

.


Even though the game mechanic doesn't play completely optimal I do like to watch his games.
This is because he plays close to my settings sorta and he plays all the time.
He live streams Monday through Friday and posts them up later on Youtube.
Although his starts seem to be amazing all the time though.
It seems he has lots of trees, jungles and hills in every game so that doesn't help me so much because I spawn in much worse starts.
Skimming through can help and you are going to learn something.
He also plays with a CS Wall Mod so that will change the game as well.

Who is “he”? Not sure which YouTube channel you’re talking about.

 

[i_imperator]

Who is “he”? Not sure which YouTube channel you’re talking about.

"He" is TheGameMechanic, GM streams over on twitch and uploads his civ content to youtube.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

IIRC you are kinda against the Civ VI game as a whole?

Actually no. Civ 6 has implemented ideas I agree with and wouldn't want to see undone. Districts/cards, how RNG is handled in combat, more ways to specialize investment in city construction/empire design are examples of significant improvements in my mind. Pre-release I was worried about how wonders would work with requirements, but found them better than Civ 4 in practice (with overwhelming advantage arising from a few in Civ 4, TAP being particularly broken and GLH a somewhat distant but still-broken second...oracle lurking in there too if you could get it).

What holds Civ 6 back are its complete dumpster fire UI (hidden rules, misleading information, broken cycling, thousands more inputs/game than a competent UI), and odd tech/unit pacing. It also shares the issue with the AI game throwing/not trying common to all Civ games (including 5, despite allegations otherwise).

My main issues with 5/6 that put me off from playing them come down to a complete disregard for end user experience and shoddy MP (de-syncs, breaking down with 5+ players to the point where some games can't be finished). It's not hyperbole to say that games take hours longer than they would with good UI and decent optimization; I've actually measured the difference as a result of recording footage in 4 and timing games in 6.

If >50% of my time in Civ 6 wasn't spent either waiting for the AI to do turns (complete with off-screen animations being done...I guess the AI needs to see them?) or slogging through useless UI inputs that a good game wouldn't require I'd play it more often. As it stands half my games are spent playing the equivalent of cookie clicker or doing nothing at all. Civ 6 isn't so good that it's worth spending half my time in front of a screen doing nothing, so I've mostly played other games and only occasionally Civ 6 with Turncast and whatnot.

If you can get past the trash UI and such it's actually not a bad game.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Did you try CQUI mod? It doesn't solve every issue with the UI (and does nothing for off-screen animations) but it really helps reduce the amount of clicks required to manage your civilization. At least with CQUI i feel like i'm using an imperfect "User Interface" rather than fight against a "Useless Interface"

 

[Brian LeClaire]

"He" is TheGameMechanic, GM streams over on twitch and uploads his civ content to youtube.

ahh I thought you were referring to an in game game mechanic lol..

 

[i_imperator]

I have an interesting map here as China. I have played a few turns and I know that we are boxed in with alot of jungle land around. I am wondering what is the best way to approach the map? I am aiming for a culture victory here. I know there is a natural wonder just north of the spices, and I plan on settling on the spices.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

That Picture looks like a Roman Civilization.
Of course the Save File does say Qin Shi Huang though.
Let me see if I can micro manage it.

 

[i_imperator]

That Picture looks like a Roman Civilization.
Of course the Save File does say Qin Shi Huang though.
Let me see if I can micro manage it.

oops your right, ill change that asap. The map is on Emperor difficulty.