Delayed Caste System

[Grashopa]

pi-r8 - SP and workshops doesn't have to hurt your tech pace. You just need a cottaged capital with Oxford, settle your GS's and be in rep for the extra beakers on every specialist. My last SP game I had 700+ beakers from the capital which got me a close number 2 in tech and the more cities I took the faster my tech pace increased

EDIT - if you don't have pyramids, use the lib to get nationalism and take the Taj golden age to make your switch to caste. During the golden age run serfdom to help your workers farm/workshop over all your cottages. Grab constitution for rep which will really boost tech on the way to State Property.

 

[binhthuy71]

Interesting and well thought out strategy. Would you then make an effort to build the Mausoleum of Mausollos to extend all of the Golden Age goodness or would the extra duration be too much of a good thing?

 

[Artichoker]

Heres my GP farm during my music golden age in my current game. The PYL game.. I am using the GA to generate 3 Great Scientists for use to bulb education and liberalism. Post golden age I will be in slavery for war purposes, but after the war will take the anarchy hit to go back to caste after farming this city and workshopping everywhere else.

I am just starting a war so I'm not going to stay in pacifism. If I wasn't I would stay in caste/pacifism so this city could put out a few more scientists. You don't need slavery for Universities and Oxford if you build caste workshops even at 1f 2h. And education can usually trade for engineering and guilds for the extra hammer. This would have guaranteed me liberalism->steel in this game because i could bulb chemistry but I am busy whipping units out right now and didn't prep for workshops by building more workers.

Edit - I'd appreciate if people posted more screens or saves. I'll add my save here as well.

Edit2 - the music GA also is good for switching to bureaucracy. In this game I actually had no civic or religion switch until this GA where I just went into Judaism and caste, vassalage, HR and pacifiism. At the end I'll be in HR, bureau, slavery, OR (to help me get in universities - oxford, theaters - GT)

Spoiler :

Impressive play...8 cities with good cash flow. Your timing for using the Golden Age is a bit earlier than mine, by about 5 centuries. But the concept is the same. The extra Great Scientists that are gained in the Golden Age can be used to bulb Chemistry, thus opening up Steel as the Liberalism prize.

Another difference is how you assign your specialists, which are all in one city at the moment. In this game, I have taken a multiple-city specialist approach.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8579940&postcount=37


Because I chose not to attempt the Music race, I needed to spend a Great Person to start a Golden Age. It just happens that I popped a Great Prophet in the one city that was running non-scientist specialists, at 600 AD.

Using Slavery during Pacifism in the pre-Golden Age period allowed cities to continue to use the whip, especially the cities that weren't used as GP Farms.

 

[Yamps]

Grashopa, feel free to mention you're playing Deity normal speed for more people to have a look.

I'm curious, why are you preparing for war with catapults at this point? You have 8 cities and room for 2 more at least. America has LBs and Sitting Bull has some 12 cities, why bother? I'd build workers instead, farm everything to slave infrastructure and delay the war. (Immortal player) You don't have a good food to hammer ratio for unit whipping in your big cities, this plan seems odd to me.

Post how it goes, you really have a very good position there!

 

[Grashopa]

Yamps - I'll spoiler this in case someone is playing PYL..

Spoiler :

Roosevelt (Mr New Deals in this game) has 4 or 5 crap cities and a ~40 gpt shrine which I want to take as soon as possible and the music golden age gives me the ability to put out enough units to do so while still getting the 3 GS's for liberalism and without delaying universities.

The strategy was as Artichoker outlines - the 2 promotions mean I need much less units to war here, but vassalage only during the GA - I end in slavery and plan to switch to caste later... I could have stayed in vassalage and did a bureau/caste switch later(taj?), but bureau gives me the hammers I need now for the university and Oxford which I'll be building next.

My only problem was not realizing I would get Pacal to pleased and be able to trade for his ivory until it was too late to finish my first round of catapults on my first turn of vassalage during the GA. So I didn't get as many 2 promotion units as I wanted out. But I doubt I'll have trouble taking the shrine. And possibly can capitulate him, but I don't have a feel for that in deity. If I cap him, that shrine will be ridiculous at a 100% gold multiplier - I'll be able to run a 100% slider without deficit after courthouses. Until I start with SB.

Also I want to get astronomy and go to the new world (terra map - set up a vassal colony), but I'll probably go for cannons since I want to win by domination. I don't have experience at deity, but I think I will have a long window of dominance at cannons to take out SB and should not have too much of a problem against Monte even if he rolls over everyone since hes so far behind in tech.

 

[Grashopa]

Artichoker - Yeah in this game I was attempting to start a war right after the early GA so everyone else was building units. That and I didn't prepare well enough for the GA - no farms, no food deficit which would have allowed 2 or 3 more scientists.

So in my game if I go for liberalism->steel there is an AI that could get lib early and force me to lib chemistry. I'll only have 1 GS to bulb chemistry since I didn't get the max out of my GA.

Well perhaps that is Yamps point since I could have guaranteed lib->steel. But I was considering grabbing astronomy since its a terra map.

 

[pi-r8]

pi-r8 - SP and workshops doesn't have to hurt your tech pace. You just need a cottaged capital with Oxford, settle your GS's and be in rep for the extra beakers on every specialist. My last SP game I had 700+ beakers from the capital which got me a close number 2 in tech and the more cities I took the faster my tech pace increased

I guess you can still get some tech by doing it that way, but if you're using workshops then the other cities aren't really giving you any commerce except for trade routes. You'd still get a lot more commerce out of them by replacing the workshops with cottages, or farms + scientists. So while it's not impossible to tech up using this strategy, your tech rate is still a lot slower than it could be. The production, of course, is massive, so you could probably add quite a bit by having the workshop cities build research/wealth.

 

[Grashopa]

Yeah the hammers are flexibility and give you a 100% slider with wealth which can actually be stronger techwise in certain cases.

I think an important point for the thread is how early can you see your strategy. Or course many times you can pick and choose or force your favorite strategy on the map, but its good to know early which strategy will be dominant. Which is why I love everyone posting - I don't have to try everything myself first

 

[Artichoker]

Interesting and well thought out strategy. Would you then make an effort to build the Mausoleum of Mausollos to extend all of the Golden Age goodness or would the extra duration be too much of a good thing?

Although I have never tried this combination before, it looks like it could bring some extra potential to the Golden Age.

With a 12-turn Golden Age, your cities have a longer time to enjoy the +100% GPP bonus. For example, let's say your next great person costs 600 GPP. With National Epic/Pacifism/Golden Age you gain +300% GPP. Therefore your base GPP needs to be 1/4 of 600 GPP, or 150 GPP. Assuming 11 turns of GPP generation (leaving 1 turn to switch out of Pacifism), you will need 13.6 GPP/turn. With a normal 8-turn Golden Age, and 7 turns of GPP generation, you will need 21.4 GPP/turn.

The more specialists you assign, however, the harder it is to maintain a feasible food deficit without losing any population. Take the above example, for instance. A 13.6 GPP/turn rate requires 4.5 specialists on average, whereas a 21.4 GPP/turn rate requires 7.1 specialists on average. Let's say you have Grassland Farms as your main source of food. Then every extra specialist creates an additional -3 food deficit, because it means 1 farm that cannot be worked.

Therefore, the 12-turn Golden Age, which only requires 4.5 specialists, compared to the 8-turn Golden Age, which requires 7.1 specialists, results in a food deficit of 3*(7.1-4.5) = 7.8 less than the normal case...which is a huge bonus, in practical terms.

So, yes, it would definitely be worthwhile to look into enhancing this strategy by trying to build the MoM.

 

[binhthuy71]

It's easy for me to overlook the MoM because I rarely have more than one Golden Age per game so investing that many hammers was a waste of resources. Now that you've shown how a Golden Age can be used for a strategic purpose rather than meeting some short term tactical goal I'll have to reassess the MoM.

 

[jmas]

This is relevant to the MoM but not so much to Delayed Caste System, since in my last game I didn't use Caste System or produce that many Great People, however, I was highly pleased with the result of building the MoM. I haven't built it very many times, and I started it in this game when my capital was out of other (useful) things to build! I wondered if I should abandon it short of completion for failure , but I finished it. Well, I ended up getting the Artist from Music, plus building the Taj and using 2 more Great Peeps for 3 total Golden Ages. That was 1.5 x 3 = 4.5 Golden Ages (36 (consecutive!) turns) for the price of 3 Golden Ages (24 turns). Though the eventual outcome wasn't much in doubt by the time I launched the Golden Age-slingshot (see ya, AIs), I did make use of them, too, winning with I think 3 Golden Age turns left. If I remember the finishing turn right, that would mean I spent over 17% of the total number of game turns in Golden Age! (Yes, this game went well , with a great random leader and start). The multiple free civic and religion changes were really nice. In some past games I've been a little at how much of my Golden Age(s) I didn't get to use because victory came too quickly! Prob'ly part of why I'm thinking of moving up another difficulty level...

 

[Grashopa]

jmas - thats just sick throwing the GAs in at the end like that

 

[Artichoker]

Artichoker - Yeah in this game I was attempting to start a war right after the early GA so everyone else was building units. That and I didn't prepare well enough for the GA - no farms, no food deficit which would have allowed 2 or 3 more scientists.

So in my game if I go for liberalism->steel there is an AI that could get lib early and force me to lib chemistry. I'll only have 1 GS to bulb chemistry since I didn't get the max out of my GA.

Well perhaps that is Yamps point since I could have guaranteed lib->steel. But I was considering grabbing astronomy since its a terra map.

Your strategy makes innovative use of the close timing of many civics changes, especially with Vassalage. But I think it is more specific to the Great Artist won from the Music race.

Without the Music race, I most likely would have used a Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy, because of its multi-purpose benefits, including Pacifism, progress toward Liberalism, and tech trading.

Assuming the Music race is not open to us, the Great Person used to trigger a Golden Age at a later date (because we cannot afford one at an earlier date) will most likely be generated by the city with the highest GPP output.

Using a Slavery/Pacifism based strategy in the pre-Golden Age period, this city will be the one that satisfies both the Food Supply and Infrastructure requirements for GPP generation. Food Supply is important to support more specialists, and Infrastructure is important to provide extra specialist slots. Most importantly, the single Great Person we spend to trigger a Golden Age can be of any type we wish...

Before the Renassaisance Era, we will be limited to 2 scientists under Slavery/Pacifism (unless we have the Great Library). But since there are other types of specialists we can leverage, why not make the most of what is available? Slavery allows for whipping of infrastructure buildings, which in turn provide more specialist slots, in addition to other benefits. This is the central basis for using Delayed Caste System.

 

[Artichoker]

But don't get me wrong...I like your idea of timing the Golden Age earlier rather than later. It maximizes the potential of the free civics changes from the Golden Age, if not the GPP generation.

 

[Artichoker]

The Minor GP Farm is an important component of our entire GP Farm system, because the purity of the GPP pool from running only 2 scientists allows us to guarantee generation of Great Scientsts.

But during the Medieval Era, the GPP generation from only 2 specialists is usually not practical for non-Philosophical leaders, who (unlike Philosophical leaders) are not able to enjoy a combined +200% GPP bonus from Philosophical and Pacifism, allowing specialists to generate GPP at triple the normal efficiency.

It is therefore in the best interest of non-Philosophical leaders to focus on using Major and Super GP Farms. A +100% GPP bonus from Pacifism allows non-Philosophical leaders to generate GPP at double normal efficiency. With 3 specialists in a Major GP Farm, a non-Philosophical leader can equal the output of a Minor GP Farm run by a Philosophical leader.

If you ask why...the answer is merely a question of survival. Using 3 specialists instead of 2 provides 50% more raw GPP generation, and taking the plunge to run Caste System instead of Slavery during the pre-Golden Age period is often too costly an option. The best solution is simply to minimize the risk of generating non-desirable Great People types, by broadening our options to utilize different types of Great People.

A prime example of this is the Great Spy, which I mentioned in an earlier post. With its ability to provide massive amounts of espionage points, it stands as a clear rival to the Great Scientist in furthering the interests of our empire.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Eh, Great Spy is okay. Have to risk pissing off a potential ally when trying to steal techs (as usually tech heavies like MM are kept pleased or better for trade opportunities). I'd rather settle the great spy in most cases. Provides good science and increase in raw EP. I hate diverting slider % from science in order to keep a safe eye on AIs.

My preferred GP are Scientists followed by Merchants followed by Great Priests followed by Engineers followed by Spies then the garbage Artists lol.

Then again, once the early scientists have served their purpose (academy in 2 best science cities, bulb Philo / Edu) I'd much rather have merchants for trade missions (therefore 100% science slider). The exception is, of course, the specialist heavy economy and WE/SSE where settled everything in REP is preferable.

 

[Artichoker]

Eh, Great Spy is okay. Have to risk pissing off a potential ally when trying to steal techs (as usually tech heavies like MM are kept pleased or better for trade opportunities). I'd rather settle the great spy in most cases. Provides good science and increase in raw EP. I hate diverting slider % from science in order to keep a safe eye on AIs.

My preferred GP are Scientists followed by Merchants followed by Great Priests followed by Engineers followed by Spies then the garbage Artists lol.

Then again, once the early scientists have served their purpose (academy in 2 best science cities, bulb Philo / Edu) I'd much rather have merchants for trade missions (therefore 100% science slider). The exception is, of course, the specialist heavy economy and WE/SSE where settled everything in REP is preferable.

I understand...everybody has different preferences for Great Person types. The main point I am emphasizing is that you should choose at least 1 non-scientist Great Person type that you are comfortable with, and focus on producing the building that unlocks a specialist of that type.

Take your preference of the Great Merchant, for example. If you run 2 GP Farms that each have a Market, then each one can run 2 scientists + 2 merchants. When the first of the 2 GP Farms pops a new GP, it has a 50% chance of being either a Great Merchant or a Great Scientist. Depending on which one you prefer more, the less preferable one can be spent to start a Golden Age, up to the 1st one generated. If you equally value Great Merchants and Great Scientists, then it really doesn't matter which kind of GP is generated.

Or say, for example, that you value Great Merchants slightly less than Great Scientists. In that case, you run 2 scientists + 1 merchant in your 2 GP Farms. Since you will want to start a Golden Age anyway, the 1st Great Merchant can be used for a Golden Age. In the worst case scenario, both GP Farms will generate a Great Merchant, which will happen with a probability of 1/9. Only in this case will you be forced to use the 2nd Great Merchant for something other than a Golden Age (because the 1st one would have been used for a Golden Age).

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

My thing is that I'll never waste a Merchant or Scientist on a golden age... well... never is a strong word. If I manage to pop a GS in the later game and I haven't used a GP for a gold age yet, I'll use the scientist or a combo scientist/whatever(non merchant). Usually, GrArtists only used for GP based golden age for me. It's situational. If I pop a spy, sometimes he'll be used for a GA if civic switch/GP production is needed.

I have yet to learn how to properly harness golden ages. They're great in my cottage heavy games and I like them. But I haven't found it necessary yet to micro getting more of them

 

[Artichoker]

My thing is that I'll never waste a Merchant or Scientist on a golden age... well... never is a strong word. If I manage to pop a GS in the later game and I haven't used a GP for a gold age yet, I'll use the scientist or a combo scientist/whatever(non merchant). Usually, GrArtists only used for GP based golden age for me. It's situational. If I pop a spy, sometimes he'll be used for a GA if civic switch/GP production is needed.

I have yet to learn how to properly harness golden ages. They're great in my cottage heavy games and I like them. But I haven't found it necessary yet to micro getting more of them

But you stated in your earlier post that sometimes you prefer Great Merchants over Great Scientists, that is when you have already built 2 Academies and bulbed Philosohy and Education...

What about the case when you pop a Great Scientist after you have built 2 Academies and bulbed both Philosophy and Education? In that case, if you spend the Great Scientist on a Golden Age, you can use Caste System to generate multiple Great Merchants! You will have a net gain, not a net loss, of Great People...furthermore, you will be able to convert your unwanted Great Person type into something you really want, which is, in this specific situation, a Great Merchant.

 

[Iranon]

My issue with Caste System is that it provides all the wrong slots. I want more engineers! I want more priests if I have the Great Beehive! I want more spies!
To me, it's usually an unfortunate necessity to workshops worth using (and I'm probably already cross if I have to go for State Property instead of going broken with corporations).