Delete 'levee's!!

[Silence101]

There are several reasons to take levees out of the game.

1. Hammers in the late game need to decrease.

In the late game, production increases like a skyrocket.
lumbermills, factories, power plant, corporations, production increasing civics,,, etc..
So most of units can be taken about less than 3 turns..
It's too much!

I know industrial revolution changed the whole world.
But It's very tedious to take control over tons of units.
Production need to be lower..

2. Dike is toooooo powerful

Everybody knows dike ROCK!!
I think giving more production bonus to dutch drydocks would be enough.

3. Riverside advantage is too much.
I know river is one of the biggest geographic feature for city growth.
But.. there are many features making river attractive in the game.

fresh water healthy bonus
commercial bonus
watermill is better than workshop,
farms can be built near fresh water.. etc..

Giving levee bonus on that? Like I said, That's too much..

4. AI doesn't consider the big adavantage of having levee when buiding cities.

I'm not saying that AI does not build city on riverside..
But I'm pretty sure blue circle doesn't consider riverside..
It's a kind of unfair thing that only players take advantage of levee on purpose.

I don't think that you're completely off track here - some good points. However, I don't think levee's should be taken out of the game either. I'd like to see more balancing in general that allows for less unit production and smaller armies... it makes things more stratigic and you have to be more careful with your units (and therefore promotions play a bigger role).

It often seems that as the game goes on, you really become able to tech and produce at a proportionately higher rate than you can in the early game (maybe it's because of effective city specialization). Someone brought up the industrial revolution, but that's represented better by fewer years passing with each turn.

 

[gettingfat]

Levees are fine, dikes are fine. The AI builds levees too (in my games anyway) and most of their cities are close enough to rivers to take advantage of it.
Dikes are a late game UB. YES they are very powerful but certainly not imbalanced (you only get a big benefit from them in coastal cities anyway)because the Dutch UU is crappy as hell. You won't even see it in most games. Also Creative/Financial, though by no means a bad combination, is hardly game-breaking either

Steam power is not a very late tech. In fact, if you don't ignore it you can get it really early.

The advantage of dikes is not only about additional coastal/ocean tile production, it's also about the ease and flexibility of building them. Regular levees required river-side cities. Unless you run into an insanely great map probably at most half of your cities are not built by the river and can't build levees. Dikes can be built in a city near ANY tile with water - river, lake, coastal.... Almost all your cities will be able to benefit from dikes. In combination of the creative trait you don't have to pull out a calculator to figure where to settle your cities.

 

[vra379971]

Tons of units? I generally conquer large maps on Monarch with 20 units. Or less. Usually less in my standing armies. And there usually aren't any defensive units in my cities in the late gme.

 

[Freedom]

Levee's are strong but they come at a point in the game where it is usually either won or lost by that point... so they either speed your victory or slow your defeat, don't think they're game-breaking or anything.

 

[Party]

Like most other people said levees accurately portray the huge jump in production that happened with the industrial revolution. I love them and they should stay!

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Steam power is not a very late tech. In fact, if you don't ignore it you can get it really early.

The advantage of dikes is not only about additional coastal/ocean tile production, it's also about the ease and flexibility of building them. Regular levees required river-side cities. Unless you run into an insanely great map probably at most half of your cities are not built by the river and can't build levees. Dikes can be built in a city near ANY tile with water - river, lake, coastal.... Almost all your cities will be able to benefit from dikes. In combination of the creative trait you don't have to pull out a calculator to figure where to settle your cities.

Completely and utterly agreed. Almost 1/3 of the game takes place post levees/dikes. On a recent huge map, if Id been anything other than Dutch, of my 17 cities at Steam Power, only 3 could have build levees. As the Dutch, I could build dikes in 13 cities. Thats thousands and thousands of hammers, I wouldn't have had, before I eventually won a Space Race.

 

[bonafide11]

I don't mind levees so much; yes, they're really damn powerful, but I think they're kind of necessary for cities that can't afford the unhealthiness that factories bring.



Conquer the world with riflemen before it becomes an issue.

Then I'd have to turn the difficultly down, and that'd take the fun out of the game...

 

[Diamondeye]

Levees are fine, dikes are fine. The AI builds levees too (in my games anyway) and most of their cities are close enough to rivers to take advantage of it.

True, if they aren't dead.

Dikes are a late game UB.

No. Middle-game, maybe abit past middle. The Russian lab is lategame UB.

YES they are very powerful but certainly not imbalanced (you only get a big benefit from them in coastal cities anyway)

Dikes are definately powerful, maybe a bit too much. Imagine a city that isn't riverside, but has a river like this:
-|XXX-
X|XXSX
X|XCXX
X|XXXX
-|XXX-

the S is the sea, the | is river. you can't build a levee in the city. But a dike would grant bonii to both the S and the 8 Xs around the river.

because the Dutch UU is crappy as hell. You won't even see it in most games. Also Creative/Financial, though by no means a bad combination, is hardly game-breaking either

The Dutch UU can be useful, but is a niche unit. Like Keshik.

And Fin/Cre is definately two strong traits, and provides a nice combo. And when dike shows around, Fin makes working riversides and coastal water much more profitable.