- deleted thread -

[Winged Hussar]

Multicultural? Not to be anti-polish, but the only minority I'm aware of being in Poland were Jews, and the Poles didn't really like them too much.

Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OoSdnebLxw

 

[jabbawackybacky]

Pueblo we know wery little about

We know enough to make a civilization out of them. Most of the communities are still there (often with a large casino a few miles from the traditional pueblo). LH Popay UB Kiva. They were never a large civilization, but they are interesting and provide a culturally distinct alternative to the Iroquois if you want to play a Native American civ.

Why do you not think Firaxis would consider Indonesia? That kind of surprises me, especially since they did considered a far smaller (though still important) civilization, the Khmer. It's good you modded one for c4, it always seemed to be a gaping hole that civ didn't have a nation representing the 4th most populous nation and a unique culture in of itself. I would like to reiterate my point that it seems silly to have Holland without Indonesia; most Dutch territory in the colonial era was land taken from the Indonesians. It would be like having a video game with Alexander the Great but no Persians.

As for Afghanistan, well, it is arguable at least that the Soviet loss there expedited if not led to the collapse of their political system, and the Third Battle of Panipat helped weaken the Maratha empire substantially (which almost certainly helped Britain conquer that empire).

Nor was Afghanistan ever completely a part of British India. The fact that India's UU is an ancient elephant, and that Ashoka was the co-leaderhead in civ-4, to me indicates that by "India" Firaxis means more specifically "Hindustan", which refers to the land more or less covered by modern day India. Burma was also a part of British India, but I think we would think of it as a distinct civilization (there were certainly no mughal forts in Rangoon!) The British were unable to conquer Afghanistan, and at best were only able to turn it into a puppet state.

That the British tried to lump it in with India doesn't mean that Afghanistan shouldn't be seen as a civilization all of its own. Rome and Britain both include Celtia in the sense that one of them conquered it and the other is a synthesis of Celtic culture with Germanic and Latin culture. Like the conflict between Celtic and Roman culture, it is the conflict between these two civilizations that one of the major forces in Indian history.

The objection to Cuba is understandable (I'd almost say "too small" not "too young", with a population of ~11 million and on a tiny island). But the lack of (1) a Latin American civilization and (2) a cold-war era leaderhead throughout all of the Civ games is another striking void (something which was present in all the other civ games), and Cuba seems to kill both of those birds with one stone.

Hussar-interesting video. I didn't know so much about medieval Poland, though I was aware of its multiethnic status. But by 1941, it was not difficult for the Nazis to exploit native anti-semitism in Eastern Europe, Poland included, to whip up the locals into helping them with the holocaust. I don't know if its record in this is necessarily better than various other nations, even if it portrayed a lot of tolerance and multinationalism in its early history. I'd say it deserves to be a civ, but perhaps it would be better to space out civs by region between the first and second expacs/later DLC? Like, 2 European civs in each, with more from other parts of the world? Perhaps Poland and Spain but with Holland and Celtia reserved for a 2nd expac?

 

[jabbawackybacky]

"Historical importance" is hard to quantify, and depends if we're considering "World History" or "European History". On one hand, many European civilizations were more influential in the development of our modern world, but all of those world-influential European civilizations are already represented. Poland of course was critical to Eastern European civ, just as much as Afghanistan has been critical to central asian history. Recognizing that Europe, since the age of sail, was more globally influential than, say, China or India, we can still see how much the world was shaped by a nation like Afghanistan. While I want to avoid prattling about historical hypotheticals, the military threat posed by Afghan warriors has helped to undermine 3 of the world's most powerful empires in 300 years (and may be now doing so to a fourth).

So I don't know how Indonesia is less influential than, say, the Khmer or Siam. If Holland was a world empire, and its empire was based on conquering and exploiting the area we now know as Indonesia, it is influential, and insofar as it facilitated trade between India and China, it is also influential. Heck, it the home of the Krakatoa natural wonder!

Anyways, i think the fact that Afghanistan has been lumped into India and Persia before shouldn't really matter. A similar argument could be made regarding the fact that Greece got absorbed into the Turkish empire, or that Egypt and Babylon became satraps of Persia. Ultimately, in the long term, a combination of geographical, cultural and demographical realities prevented either Persia, the USSR, the UK or India from maintaining a hold of Afghanistan.

As for Poland representing Eastern Europe and the Slavs there are no central asian civilizations at all (unless you are liberal and include the Mongols, Persians or Ottomans, in which case Greece and Turkey might count as Eastern Europe too).

Anyways, its your list! Im not trying to decide whats on it. I just had some suggestions of my own, combined with a desire to make the civ basis more diverse.

 

[Kyriakos]

The Byzantine Empire, of course

 

[eljacko]

Maybe a better name for the "Afghans" would be Pashtuns, as that's what the people who created "Afghanistan" were called, and they spread out between modern-day Afghanistan and Pakistan, although they used to be part of one empire until the British showed up, and modern-day Afghanistan is made up of the parts of central Asia left over from that period. And now, the Pashtun civilization, which used to be one country, are split between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Check out the Durrani Empire, as that was the high point for the Pashtun civilization. Maybe if Firaxis decided to include central Asia in some form to complement the Persians, the Pashtuns in this form could work. Ahmad Shah wouldn't make such a bad leaderhead if they went this route.

Either way, if you want to "think like Firaxis" you better include some Asian civs on your list, because you have none right now and I really don't think Firaxis is going to ship the next expansion without a single Asian civ. Maybe Afghanistan, or the Pashtuns, could qualify.

But it could also mean Indonesia! I would bet that they'd call it a Malay civilization, though, as there is a long history of various Hindu and Muslim kingdoms ruling parts of modern-day Indonesia and Malaysia, the two largest being Srivijaya and the Sultanate of Malacca. Besides, the linguistic differences between Indonesian and Malaysian relate largely to the different colonial rulers.

In all likelihood, though, they'll include the Koreans, as the Koreans have been in the first expansions for Civ3 and Civ4. And they could include Turtle ships!

 

[Thor Macklin]

Well this list isn't what we say has to be the entire civ list.
It's merely a list of civs, that, once there is popular member support,
will be sent to firaxis in hopes of influencing their civ choices.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

The Durrani empire is a good point of departure. If there was an Afghan civ, I would hope that the LH would be from the Durrani Empire. As for the Malay states and the Pashtuns, I doubt they would introduce two Muslim nations, even though they are quite different, but they might want one in the expac.

Personally, I don't like Korea as a suggestion. I'd rather try something new. My bets for ones on the list that they are planning already: Maya, Inca, and I could see Spain as DLC before the expac.

I think Firaxis might consider Indonesia or any other culture for that matter if they know that there is a sizable portion of fans who want it (aside from the usual chorus of nationalists who want firaxis to include Hungary, Israel, Uzbekistan etc ... I'm not Indonesian, so I dont count ). And it seems like there are. Afghanistan might be a stretch since I haven't read it suggested on the forums anywhere, but interest and knowledge of Indonesia has been increasing in the general culture (Bali must be one of the most overbooked tourist destinations now on earth, and Obama lived there for some time... and it is a place where the culture seems to have contributed to his cultural and ideological pluralism).

 

[Vordeo]

Just a heads up, looks like the next two civs are definitely going to be Spain & Inca.

There are new Steam achievements online, most of which still have placeholder names, but two have pictures which look like Isabella and a native american leader, respectively.

See below post for more.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9913049&postcount=236

 

[Fanatic Noob]

Poland should be in most wanted I would like to see Poland as great nation with Pilsudski leader (there is good leaderhead with him to Civ4 - I must say that it is very good work for the autor). But more Civs = the better, but I would rather focus on industrial and modern Civs and leaders while adding than on ancient ones... I do not know why, maybe because I like more to play on modern/future era.

 

[IgorS]

Just a heads up, looks like the next two civs are definitely going to be Spain & Inca.

There are new Steam achievements online, most of which still have placeholder names, but two have pictures which look like Isabella and a native american leader, respectively.

See below post for more.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9913049&postcount=236

Yep, the woman is definitely Isabella. The man is 99% an Incan leader. I wonder who it will be.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

Possibly Mayan too. Or perhaps it will be something really random, like the Sioux. Did the Inca wear feather headdresses?

 

[Thor Macklin]

Hungary is a reasonable choice actually.
(Note, after double checking I found that the magyars
are turkic people who's language is finno-ugrian.)

They owned a massive empire in europe, that stayed
intact for HUNDREDS of years. They terrorized
european countries with their armies of
horsemen, AND they were one of the Ottomans
main enemies until they were conquered.
Plus many other historical goals.
But to be realistic I only expect to
see them as some sort of civ for
a 2nd expansion instead of the first one.

And it is downright unrealistic to try and convince us that
an afghan civ should be included in this list. NOT that
I have anything against the afghans, but if any asian
civ is going to replace the celts it would be much better
in the form of an indonesian civ.
As such I suggest that we all shut up about this
silly idea of adding afghanistan, and replace the
celts with an indonesian civ, or just add an
indonesian civ to the list. Sound about right?

Now i have no issue with an afghanistani civ. But
the land has had so many other foreign owners to
represent the land. (greco-bactrian kingdom,
persian empire, Timurids/Mongols, And even
india under the kushans.)

My main issue is, this list is to put forth suggestions
that we all want to see in the NEXT EXPANSION.
Now for a 2nd expansion I would be glad to
see an afghanistan civ added.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

Hungary is a reasonable choice actually.
Now i have no issue with an afghanistani civ. But
the land has had so many other foreign owners to
represent the land. (greco-bactrian kingdom,
persian empire, Timurids/Mongols, And even
india under the kushans.)

Timurids would be ... awesome. I suppose there are already the mongols tho.

 

[IgorS]

As Spain will probably be DLC in not that long, we shall replace them with Majapahit/Indonesia. Let's stick to 10 for now.

Indonesia? I think we should replace Spain with Portugal in our list before we go to Indonesia and all the civs Firaxis is probably not even considering right now.

 

[IgorS]

Well, we have too many europeans, so let's see if that leader is an Inca too before we go for them.

I'm almost sure he's an Inca. Maybe they are also planning a Spain vs. Inca scenario.

 

[Thor Macklin]

(They better only charge us $5 if that's the case.)

But anyway, if the list is complete, shouldn't there be
some poll set up in order to gain popular member
support? If there is no momentum there is little
impact and we can expect our suggestion
list to go into firaxis spam folder without a second
thought. With mass-member support they might
actually look at it.

 

[Thor Macklin]

It's easy, just post a new topic that has a poll, in the post put our proposed list.
And then ask in the poll if a member approves or not. If we have over 500 in favor we'll
submit the list. Simple enough.

 

[pleasenoname]

Possibly Mayan too. Or perhaps it will be something really random, like the Sioux. Did the Inca wear feather headdresses?

Probably not. The Inca came from the high mountains, there clothing was dyed cotton, dyed wool (for warmth) and many gold accessories (mined in the mountains). There are less birds in the high cold mountains.

Colored cotton garments have been found in The mound builder civilization's burials in the United States also.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

Mayans might make sense too though; a Mesoamerican scenario concentrating on Mexico and not South America, with Aztecs and Mayans but no South America and Incans, makes more sense than a scenario with both continents and Incans and Aztecs with no Mayans.

Anyways, if ur going to have Majapahit/Indonesia-what about a replacement for the Theatre for the UB? A UB should speak to their unique theater culture, gamelan music and performances from hindu epics, etc.

 

[IgorS]

While you're thinking about Indonesia, I will post my suggestions regarding Portugal:

Leader: Henrique (other options: Joao II and Afonso Henriques)
UU: Carrack (replaces Caravel)
UU2: Cacador (replaces musketman)