Demigod help

[bluerunner6]

I really enjoyed Emperor and decided to try demigod. First attempt the AI decided to attack me when I was barely afloat. Trying again, playing as Iroquois. I got the GL and pyramids, my land is fairly small, it's 300 BC and I'm fairly sure I'm the weakest militarily. I have about 18 cities on my island, 1 on a Southwest 5 tile tundra island, 3 total on tundra islands to the right and 1 about to go on a 5 tile island on the NW
I have 2200 gold, from turning my tax slider down to 20%, recently turned it up so now I have 11 turns to go to finish researching republic (my average city size is 3-4, capital is at 7), I have 26 workers on my mainland working the field, about 6 mounted warriors and no structures in any cities beyond the granary from the pyramids

A lot of civs are building the lighthouse. I have a Scientific Great Leader so I plan to rush it, hoping that'll decrease the likelihood of as many opportunist coming to my land and limit their contact with each other. My neighboring island, connected to me by coast is China, and next to them, also connected by coast is Sumeria. Sumeria is in the lead, they just finished researching republic.

Most of my cities are building mounted warriors. I'm ~20 turns from finishing FP as well. I plan to switch to republic once I finish researching it. I'm just not sure what direction to go... Things were a lot easier in emperor. My start was usually workers/settlers + early kill + Glib + marketplace.



- Would you recommend building libraries now? Will I be behind in tech for most of the game on demigod aka it'll mainly be survival by trading?
- If not libraries, wait for marketplaces and make courthouses where it makes sense, otherwise troops til I can make marketplaces?
- More workers? My gut and prior experience tell me I'll be getting attacked by China or Sumeria soon.. not too concerned due to limited boat carrying capacity and I'll pick off their boats and kill their troops with what I have.. but still I have ptsd from my last game
- Any other suggestions for early game?


Also, I know the future is far off, but what's the reality of an endgame demigod conquest win here? My hope is I stay afloat with tech trades once Glibrary expires and when the AI starts researching things I don't care about at the moment, like nationalism, communism, espionage, etc, and starts fighting wars with themselves, I try to get to bombers and create stacks as high as possible and just start looking to cripple my neighbors and wiping out any who land on my territory. I just don't know the reality of getting there and even that strategy seems slow but unavoidable considering the troop quantity they'll likely have at that point.. A little concerned with managing long term happiness also. I'm trying to maintain good trade relationships with tech trades but I don't know if that'll influence them making favorable luxury trade deals with me in the future and again with their unit support cost/numbes, I think taking a city for the luxury nearby before bombers/infantry and defending that city seems iffy... However if I'm not putting any money to research, just using trades to stay afloat, I can put my money into just the happiness slider plus maybe with cathedrals and if i'm lucky enough to get JS bachs and/or sistene chap, hopefully they can keep happiness stable til at least a city size of 12.

I attached two pics. I have 2 changes to the game active. The color for Iroquois is lighter pink, which happens to make to make them look like China.... and China happens to be right next to them. And another that shows the whole map.


I really wish there were a mode between Emperor and Demigod. Thanks to anyone who read all this and can give demigod specific answers to my laundry list of questions.

 

[justanick]

Since you have a relatively large island for yourself your focus should be utilizing the land. All towns should grow into cities of size 12. That implies libraries among aqueducts and of course barracks.

What you should not do is build up a large but unused military.

It looks like there is no obvious military target for you. The chinese appear to have their own large island. That does favour the defender. A war against them soon would be risky, but at some point your UU will be somewhat outdated while the chinese UU will appear.

One option is to aim for a war with cavalry. Build up about sixty 4/4 Knights, upgrade them to cavalry and transport them over after declaring war. You would need a decisive military advantage and you need an easy to defend tile for landing your troops all at the same time. Is there a mountain tile with 100% defence bonus for that purpose?

 

[bluerunner6]

Thanks for the great advice. Would you prioritize the libraries first? I normally do but the AI teching is so amazing here, it almost seems pointless.

The best the Chinese have on their land are a few coastal hills for the 50% bonus. Fortunately one of them is by the city with luxury so that's an option for later. I don't normally attack until I have infantry and a clear - I can take most the cities I want in 2-3 turn advantage - but I'm worried that'll be too late, not sure why.. I may just be unfamiliar with playing like this. My normal way of playing is to use spearmen, focus on defense after securing an island, and upgrade them all to infantry once I'm able and then mech infantry and start invading everyone with tanks while building my bomber stack.

I'm worried that won't work here, I also likely won't get leonardo's so it may be too expensive for a mass upgrade of pikeman -> infantry -> tanks. The likelihood of early AI attack seems higher on demigod and attack volume seems like it'll be more as well, so I needed a new strategy (other than just making more pikeman). I went with mounted warriors, for a lesser numbers, and just nearby/in between likely-to-be targeted cities.

Assuming I'd rather wait and only attack once I have some clear advantage (infantry, bombers, mech infantry), what do you think - stick with mounted warriors or maybe do a mix of spearman / mounted warriors with the goal of upgrading the spearman for longterm?

 

[tjs282]

The AI can't drop more than 2 units per ship until Astro (Caravels).

If you get declared on, you can encourage them to dump all those units near your capital by fortifying at least 1 good defender (Spear -- or Pike later, if you got Iron), plus 1 MW on Sentry-duty, in every (other) coastal town. Then station 5-6 Swords (or MWs, once you're ready to start your GA) near your cap, and you should be able to overwhelm any such 2-unit landings easily -- even when they start dropping off Muskets (though you might want to add a few Trebs to your beachhead-defense at that point).

Then if you want to wait until Infs before starting your conquering, tech-trade through to the Industrial, beeline Steam -> RP while you build up your MW/ Knight/ Cav-stack and Galleon-fleet, and declare once you have 3-4 Infs available to defend your chosen landing-spot.

If you can foment some wars between the Chinese and the Sumerians in the meantime, to give them despotic/ early GAs before you're ready to go on the offensive, that might also help.

 

[justanick]

Thanks for the great advice. Would you prioritize the libraries first? I normally do but the AI teching is so amazing here, it almost seems pointless.

The point is to prioritize growth. If you have 20 cities, then increase the amount of workers to 20*3=60. Get to cities with fully developed tiles fast. Within the buildings aqueducts are a clear priority as they are necessary for growth. And growth is the priority.

How you prioritize libraries vs. marketplaces vs. barracks vs. courthouses matters, but not really that much. Barracks are cheap, so building them while production is still relatively low may make sense. The main point really is to have aqueducts. Building libraries will take some time, but in some places you need the culture and once the Great Library is expected to become obsolete you would rather have those libraries running, wouldn't you?

I don't normally attack until I have infantry and a clear - I can take most the cities I want in 2-3 turn advantage - but I'm worried that'll be too late, not sure why.. I may just be unfamiliar with playing like this. My normal way of playing is to use spearmen, focus on defense after securing an island, and upgrade them all to infantry once I'm able and then mech infantry and start invading everyone with tanks while building my bomber stack.

Well, all this waiting till later is usually a significant disadvantage. The lack of a good landing spot does however somewhat favour waiting for a good defender like infantry, but really not longer than that either.

Assuming I'd rather wait and only attack once I have some clear advantage (infantry, bombers, mech infantry), what do you think - stick with mounted warriors or maybe do a mix of spearman / mounted warriors with the goal of upgrading the spearman for longterm?

The old spearman strategy seems like really bad habit, so get rid of it while you can. Also your reliance on wonders seems like bad habit. I would not be surprised if not going for the great library would have gotten you to a better position than you are right now. But that is speculation.

The mounted warriors do invite to be used. But how exactly? One approach with severe disadvantages would be to sign RoP with china, transport 60 MW and then break the RoP. That would be an easy way to get more territory, but diplomatic options will be limited after that. MW are really better suited for Pangaea.

So i in your place would rather stick to the 60 cavalry approach. This implies that mounted warriors will be obsolete. Upgrading them to knights is a bad deal. Upgrading MW to cavalry is sightly better deal, but at 150 gold each rather expensive. In the short run you need to have some MW, as they offer some deterrence. But try to keep their total number and the cost of unit support in general low. Workers are expected eat up all free unit support, so any unit in addition to the workers will cost 2 gtp each as a republic. Donnot afford an expensive military unless you are committed to using it reasonably soon.

Build up your economy. Once it is reasonably build up, start building knights intended to become cavalry. At one point you will have few knights, but a high rate of building them, maybe 50 every 20 turns. While still having few knights is a good point to reevaluate your situation. You may use that point to ask the community here to offer possible insights. Essentially at that point you have two options.

A: Go for at least 60 cavalry and enough transports to land all of that at one hill tile. Also add up to 6 muskets.
B: Go for expensive universities etc. first and with replaceable parts a combination of infantry, artillery proper and lots of cavalry will be your tool to take out china.

In any case inviting a few other nations to fight china will help, but due to the island-situation not that much. It is useful distraction for china, but not much more.

 

[Spoonwood]

I got the GL

GL isn't clear on a first read. The letters abbreviate two different wonders!

I have about 18 cities on my island

O. K. now it sounds like you mean Great Lighthouse.

A lot of civs are building the lighthouse.

Oh! You meant The Great Library! Maybe my confusion was amusing!

If you get declared on, you can encourage them to dump all those units near your capital by fortifying at least 1 good defender (Spear -- or Pike later, if you got Iron), plus 1 MW on Sentry-duty, in every (other) coastal town. Then station 5-6 Swords (or MWs, once you're ready to start your GA) near your cap, and you should be able to overwhelm any such 2-unit landings easily -- even when they start dropping off Muskets (though you might want to add a few Trebs to your beachhead-defense at that point).

Tjs implies NOT having any units in your capital, but having them near your capital. If a capital lies undefended, AIs at war with you will send ships in that direction usually.

Justanick has some good tips also, as usual.

But also, I took a look at your picture. Do you see the tiles near Salamanca that can't get used by any cities? I see two forest tiles east of Salamanca and a plains tile that no city can use! Put a city on one of those tiles... probably the plains forest tile! Also, where you have a galley north of Salamanca? No city can use that tile and some other coast/sea tiles near Salamanca. Put a city north on that coast, and you'll have a good bit more commerce soon enough! Also, it looks like you have the entire map explored already?! Are you playing in debug mode?

Yes, libraries would be good to get up, though you still need more cities. ICS that tundra also.

 

[justanick]

A settling pattern better suited to exploit the given territory will have a meaningful impact. It is best to implement that (long) before 310 BC, but it is better to start now than to loose out on more.

 

[justanick]

For now, I created a makeshift wall of warriors

It may make sense to replace them with mounted warriors or swordsmen or MedInfs. You want high deterrence at low unit support.

Also instigating a war btwn China and Sumeria to trigger their GA? Awesome idea, thank you for that. I included better pics below

I am less fond of that idea. If they have no GA before you go to war against them, that will better suit you. If however those two effectively fight each other, that would suit you. I would probably stay at peace for mere selfish reasons.

I do notice that you entered a GA. Entering GA before most of your cities have reached size 12 is wasteful. You want the bonus from the GA to apply to as many tiles as reasonably possible.

Hoping to get Sun Tzu's in my capital.

So your wonder addiction is still not cured.

However, China got the great wall so this may be a bit of a pain,

Not really. Cities give 50% defence bonus anyway. Walls give the same bonus to towns, but walls are useless at city size. So the wonder makes no difference once city size is reached.

You said there may be disadvantages if I wait til later. What would those be, besides them having more units?

Mainly you loosing out on their territory. So while a later war may even be easier for you, an earlier war does give you the advantages of their territory much earlier and on balance this makes it the better choice, probably by quite a margin.

As for territory that you do control i would have gone for a much denser settling pattern utilizing many coastal tiles totalling 32+7+3+2+2=46 towns in the large screenshot.

 

[bluerunner6]

Thank you for this!! I meant to update my pictures but I accidentally deleted the whole post. Thanks for responding before that.

Some quick questions based on the picture you marked -

- Does the denser settling pattern limit growth later on? I assumed cities need the full 20? squares, just based on the pictures online of civs at endgame. Can you explain the idea here?

- Sorry to get into the weeds here but when starting the game, I was using the strategy, if a city has 2 tiles with 2 food and has at least 2 shields that aren't corrupted, have the city make settlers vs if it only has 1 shield or doesn't have the food tiles to get to level 3, just produce workers. What strategy would you suggest for worker vs settler building to get settlers made quickly? I'm guessing having more workers be more efficient to make more cities able to pump out settlers?

- Early on, after building workers, I focus on my capital and closest cities. Would you have them just work the city they're generated at? Trying to work the capital or closest cities to the capital seems to waste turns sometimes for their travel backwards but those cities have the greatest potential to build settlers quickly.

Lastly, do you think Sun Tzu's isn't worthwhile? The cost saving potential and combat help early on seems worth it

 

[justanick]

- Does the denser settling pattern limit growth later on? I assumed cities need the full 20? squares, just based on the pictures online of civs at endgame. Can you explain the idea here?

The first priority is to use as many tiles as possible as early as possible.

Having many tiles used per city is a lower priority. Using a given amount of total tiles by fewer metropolises can help to lower building maintenance and corruption. That really only matters after hospitals are available. In the short run an even denser settling pattern may make sense as that does increase the total food surplus and free unit support.

Lastly, do you think Sun Tzu's isn't worthwhile? The cost saving potential and combat help early on seems worth it

The big question is what else you could have done with those 600 shields. Saving (up to) 32*40=1280 shields and (up to) 32 gtp is a big advantage, so clearly it can be worthwhile. But there is no guarantee for it to be a good decision.

- Sorry to get into the weeds here but when starting the game, I was using the strategy, if a city has 2 tiles with 2 food and has at least 2 shields that aren't corrupted, have the city make settlers vs if it only has 1 shield or doesn't have the food tiles to get to level 3, just produce workers. What strategy would you suggest for worker vs settler building to get settlers made quickly? I'm guessing having more workers be more efficient to make more cities able to pump out settlers?

- Early on, after building workers, I focus on my capital and closest cities. Would you have them just work the city they're generated at? Trying to work the capital or closest cities to the capital seems to waste turns sometimes for their travel backwards but those cities have the greatest potential to build settlers quickly.

What you want is that every tile used by city is an improved tile and very improved tile is used by a city. Finetuning everything to get reasonably close to this ideal is an art of itself.

It is important not to generalize too much. Having your cities be of roughly the same size tends to work well. Close to a the capital cities tend to be a bit larger, but maybe not by much.

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't agree that building Sun Tzu's is worthwhile. (15 x 4) = 600. Will 15 cities need barracks? Maybe not before the first war. It's better to have some cities produce attack/defend units, while some others put out artillery type units. Those that put out artillery type units don't need barracks. And also, it takes a lot less time for most cities to get barracks up than to wait for Sun Tzu's Art of War to finish.

As for early priorities, cities might need some workers to develop, but try to get up a granary in a city before mass producing settlers or workers. Really, a granary in the capital before settlers can for sure help.

And yes, absolutely a denser build. 20 tiles per city?! Hospitals always cost 160 shields to build! That has the same cost as 2 cavalry. And Sanitation comes as optional. And more importantly, those tiles won't get used for ages if you wait for hospitals. It's better to have a denser build planning to use 10-12 tiles per city. Maybe even lower in some situations.

 

[justanick]

Will 15 cities need barracks?

If we subtract the cities with low production for producing artillery or naval units, then it might turn out that exactly 15 cities need barracks.

Cities inside a continent should usually get barrracks, but the ones at the coast need additional shields for harbors while having less shields as for most of the game coastal tiles are really only good for commerce. That commerce however should have priority for getting multiplicator buildings such as universities.

It's better to have a denser build planning to use 10-12 tiles per city. Maybe even lower in some situations.

Prior to hospitals it is best to plan with slightly less than 12+1 tiles per city, the 1 being the city tile. Taking hospitals into account from the start is something i like to do and it has minor merits. But it is probably best to first win roughly 10 serious games using a dense pattern before taking the possibility of hospitals into account at all. Learn the basics first: Optimize what happens before turn 140 - 250 AD.

I used black crosses to indicate 10 more cities that may be abandoned when hospitals become available. Getting rid of them is an option, not a necessity. This would be 40+9+3+2+2=56 cities.