Democracy versus republic

[Alastriona]

Back in civ2 democracy was the absolute killer government and despotism -> republic -> democracy was my most common path.

In civ3 its not as impressive. Its really just not worth the anarchy to go from republic. and then again I tend to make less money because of army and worker upkeep.

Now I've come to a situation where I am considering democracy again. This is the situation: I play as mayans (industrious and agri) on emperor. I pretty much have a continent for my own ( I wiped the others out in monarchy). My empire is pretty big (most land of everyone) and the core cities have every possible improvement of the medieval age, save the colloseum because I have sistine chapel. I'm currently in anarchy to shift away from monarchy to go to a more peacful building strat.

I tested it and switching to republic gives me better income. But if I disband some of my military ( I have quite a few) in democracy I can get to about the same level of income. The obvious advantage of democracy is the faster workers, I have a vast jungle somwhere on the continent that could be cleared faster. Of course under republic I can simply build more workers as I can support more of them for free.

I don't plan on warring anyone else but with the AI you never know. I am also slightly ( 2 techs) behind on the two most advanced AI, so I could do with the AI liking me. I don't know what would give me a better position as a peacful building civ. A relativly large defensive force or pretty much nothing. Will the AI like me more if I have less military, or will they simply think I'm pathetic and give me outrageous demands?

All of this considered I am not sure what to choose and I'm looking for advice.

 

[vmxa]

Most likely they will lean towards seeing you as a target, if you have to divest a large part of your military. No unit support so even workers will cost.

Fast workers are swell, but what difference does that really make? I mean you are working on tiles that you can either do without or wait an extra turn at this point, I would expect. IOW the core should already be finished.

A further consideration is you need to have the techs to have Demo. Maybe you have them, I hope not from researching.

The increased commerce is of value, just not sure if the cost justifies it or not. You will of course have to endure a number of turns of anarchy, during which no builds, no research takes place.

If you do get into Demo, you have to take care, if you do get into any wars, as they will not like it.

Normally it is faster to use the troops to cripple the others and get strong, rather than pay all the penalties of going to Demo.

I would imagine that you could go either way and win.

 

[Alastriona]

Most likely they will lean towards seeing you as a target, if you have to divest a large part of your military. No unit support so even workers will cost.

Fast workers are swell, but what difference does that really make? I mean you are working on tiles that you can either do without or wait an extra turn at this point, I would expect. IOW the core should already be finished.

A further consideration is you need to have the techs to have Demo. Maybe you have them, I hope not from researching.

The increased commerce is of value, just not sure if the cost justifies it or not. You will of course have to endure a number of turns of anarchy, during which no builds, no research takes place.

If you do get into Demo, you have to take care, if you do get into any wars, as they will not like it.

Normally it is faster to use the troops to cripple the others and get strong, rather than pay all the penalties of going to Demo.

I would imagine that you could go either way and win.

Don't worry about the anarchy, as stated I am already in anarchy because I was warmongering a bit because the aztecs were being a pain in the ass. I now have to choice between republic and democracy. I was going for democracy, I even traded for it but now I'm having some regrets spending the effort on getting those techs from trade.

Since this is my second game on emperor only, and the first game I forfeited because it wasn't going the way I wanted and I was playing used strategies from lower levels. I think I'll go with republic. I might go back a few turns too to where I traded for democracy.

It's really a shame they didn't make democracy a little better, it quite worthless form most games it seems.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

If I remember correctly, units above the 1/3/4 free unit support cost 2 GPT for support in Republic and 1 for Democracy. Conceivably, you could pay more unit support under Republic than Dem.

 

[Alastriona]

If I remember correctly, units above the 1/3/4 free unit support cost 2 GPT for support in Republic and 1 for Democracy. Conceivably, you could pay more unit support under Republic than Dem.

I did some calculations. I have 200 units for free under republic. That means if I get 400 units it would cost me:

400 gold (1 per) under demo.
400 gold (2 for 200 units too many) under republic.

So it doesn't start paying off until I get a military bigger then that. I don't know if its common for (peaceful builder) players to get a military bigger then 400 in emperor level. I currently have 136 units, of which 32 are workers. which is a bit low perhaps for an empire my size, but I had to spent alot of resources on this war, it held me back a little in development but I think with the added cities I got from the war it will balance out. I dont expect to build a much bigger land military, if anything I need to start building a navy since im on a continent alone. Ill also consider getting more workers. I very much doubt ill exceed 400 though.

I also dont have sanitationb yet, so no metros, which add even more free support.

Anyone can tell me what reasonable numbers are for emperor diff?

 

[ThinkTank]

It depends, but normally I'd say you need far less than 400.

 

[Alastriona]

It depends, but normally I'd say you need far less than 400.

And republic will only getting better at supporting when I get metros. I've decided t go for republic. Trading the tech needed for democracy would cost me 4000 gold as well (trading with the ai). totaly not worth it.

 

[vmxa]

If I remember correctly, units above the 1/3/4 free unit support cost 2 GPT for support in Republic and 1 for Democracy. Conceivably, you could pay more unit support under Republic than Dem.

There is no free unit support in Demo, you pay for every one you have, workers as well.

 

[vmxa]

And republic will only getting better at supporting when I get metros. I've decided t go for republic. Trading the tech needed for democracy would cost me 4000 gold as well (trading with the ai). totaly not worth it.

It is not even that you may get a great price for the trade. The thing is, if you give them gold, you are paying for their research and troops. This is rarely on your best interest.

Do not be concerned about Sanitation, again it is an optional tech and you have better techs to learn at that point. You do not need the tiny unit support you gain form a metro.

What you need is the free support from having a lot more towns and cities. You pay for those 400 units by annexing land. BTW you should not need 400 troops in a std map on emperor.

I just played someones game and have about 650 units to take out about 3000 of someones units. 2400 were MI and MA.

I would think 100-120 good units for the age should be plenty for a std map.

 

[Alastriona]

Do not be concerned about Sanitation, again it is an optional tech and you have better techs to learn at that point.

Really? I Always go for santitation pretty quickly. Usually after I get railroads and factories. My empire is pretty big right now, so big that I have to start manually naming cities because even the new xxxxx are all taken. And any new cities will pretty much have big corruption. The only way to get more productivity is by getting bigger cities and upgradings the ones that arent fully upgraded yet.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Out of curiosity, is there any sort of reference for what kind of military Monarchy/Communism need to field before they overcome Republic/Democracy's bonus Commerce? It's always seemed to me that I lose out on Republic because of the cost of maintaining a viable military.

 

[Alastriona]

Out of curiosity, is there any sort of reference for what kind of military Monarchy/Communism need to field before they overcome Republic/Democracy's bonus Commerce? It's always seemed to me that I lose out on Republic because of the cost of maintaining a viable military.

Being realtivly big and having alot of cities (6 and up) helps alot. cities maintain 3 units for free. The thing with republic is if you go over the free limit it costs 2 gold per unit. You can have big armies with republic, your empire just needs to be big. Your not likely to use your armies in republic in any of the higher difficulties though. I used to be fine making war with republic at warlord. Trying it on emperor had pretty horrible results.

If you are a fulltime warmonger then republic simply isn't for you.

 

[vmxa]

Really? I Always go for santitation pretty quickly. Usually after I get railroads and factories. My empire is pretty big right now, so big that I have to start manually naming cities because even the new xxxxx are all taken. And any new cities will pretty much have big corruption. The only way to get more productivity is by getting bigger cities and upgradings the ones that arent fully upgraded yet.

I pretty much never bother with Sanitation, I do not need metros. I have had over 400 towns and never had to name any.

Forget about corruption, it is not important. Turn all those corrupt towns into farms. Rail and irrigate their tiles and make as many scientist as you can in each. Anyway , if you are that big, why is the game not over?

 

[Spoonwood]

Sanitation can make sense in a space game, if you irrigate all tiles you can once you put hospitals in your cities.