Denouncement chain

[pacizou]

Hello.
I've been playing Civ5 BNW (quick game), and one thing confuses me every time.
In this case, In early game i conquered neighbour city-state, of course other civs don't like warmongers, so they denounced me and later go to war with me.
I played passive, only defend my positions, and only city I got from war was traded with peace treaty.
Later, when I revealed map, and met every civ, Bismarck (civ that went to war with me in ancient era) decided to denounce me again.
Then, everyone (friends, enemies, neutrals) denounced me, even two of the civs became hostile, one of them was congress host, so i had problem with embargo proposal.
Many turns later when one, or two civs were neutral and third was friendly, Bismarck denounced me, because one of the civs that followed him before, still had their denouncement "active", then every other civ denounces me.
Thing keep happening again, and again, one civ forgets, another denounces.
Will be there an end to it, or i have to be worlds push-around for eternity?

 

[ShakaKhan]

Welcome to Civfanatics Forums!

There are several conditions that make an AI dislike you, one being warmongering which, in the above example, you are not guilty of. However, there are many other peaceful contributing conditions that make the AI dislike you such as:
-building lots of wonders
-finishing wonders that a particular AI has invested hammers in
-expanding quickly, which also may lead to...
-...having close/touching borders
-being allied with a CS that they want to be allied with

These negative modifiers are frequent diplomatic hurdles at lower level play. These can snowball into more diplomatic modifiers such as:
-being denounced by an AI in general
-being denounced by a leader that the other civ likes more than you (it looks like in your game, Germany had great relations with everyone)
-you denounce someone that they like

While everything listed above is pretty benign and frequently unintentional, it is more than enough to get AI's guarded towards you, maybe even hostile depending on the civ. You can exacerbate the situation by:
-proposing something they don't like in WC
-voting against their proposal
-spreading your religion if they've founded one
-stealing territory w/ GG
-warring with protected CS's, including stealing their workers

And then there's promises, probably the most annoying part of diplomacy. The Ai will frequently ask you to stop doing some things:
-stop spreading your religion
-stop spying on them
-move your troops away from their borders, or declare war on me now.
-stop settling cities near them ("near" is a little ambiguous...)
-stop buying tiles near them

The last two are big ones - if you are planning on buying tiles near them or settling another city near them, it's better to not make the promise then break it later, but marginally so (-15 vs. -20)

So there's lots of diplomatic penalties which are not war related and really pretty benign. Most of them are jealousy based.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Many turns later when one, or two civs were neutral and third was friendly

Be careful with this - "friendly" often does not mean friendly, it means deceptively preparing to war against you. Some civs are more likely than others to do this, but check to see how much GPT they'll give you in a luxury trade. If they'll give you full value (7GPT on standard speed, all difficulty levels) then they really are friendly with you. If their status is "friendly" but they'll only give you 5 or 6 GPT for one luxury, the "friendly" status is a deception and they're marching an army towards you.

 

[pacizou]

I'm pretty sure that was true friendly, quite an achievement if this civ was Montezuma, but it does not matter now, because Venice denounced me and everything repeated :/

 

[pacizou]

In that time I had four cities, and any one of them was near anyone's border, it was very early in game (about 8 tiles away from any other border, not counting city-states)
I did not even try to ally with city-state, because I wanted to boost my economy first, and go for autocracy, what would allow me to ally CS quickly, but in late game.
I did not denounce anyone at all, I learned, that it would only make my situation worse.
I was spreading my religion unintentionally, but civ that was target of my religion was happy about it.
But what's done is done, my point was, if I ever will be able to go back from this chain?
It seems that every denouncement is fueled by other, that was fueled by another etc.

 

[ShakaKhan]

But what's done is done, my point was, if I ever will be able to go back from this chain?
It seems that every denouncement is fueled by other, that was fueled by another etc.

It's unlikely. Some of the minor diplomatic penalties die off pretty quickly, like bullying a CS under their protection dies off after 10 turns, and if they bully a CS under your protection and you don't forgive them it dies off after 30 turns. But most of the significant diplomatic penalties take much longer to decay and if multiple, somewhat staggered denouncements are happening, diplomacy is pretty much out the window for the game.

Some of the more severe penalties, like city-burning last 100 or 200 turns, which on standard speed is pretty much the whole game. But I don't know if diplomatic modifier duration is weighted based on game speed? Browd? JonCNunn?

 

[beetle]

In early game i conquered neighbour city-state, of course other civs don't like warmongers, so they denounced me and later go to war with me.

Taking a CS or killing off an AI come with very harsh penalties.

I played passive, only defend my positions, and only city I got from war was traded with peace treaty.

All of that had no impact, good nor bad, with diplomacy.

Thing keep happening again, and again, one civ forgets, another denounces.
Will be there an end to it, or i have to be worlds push-around for eternity?

But what's done is done, my point was, if I ever will be able to go back from this chain? It seems that every denouncement is fueled by other, that was fueled by another etc.

Those denouncement chains can be pretty brutal. What you would have had to do to break the cycle would have (1) gotten a declaration of friendship with a couple of AIs, which maybe could have happened if you gifted them a lux or resources; or (2) bribe one of them (probably Bismarck) to DOW a couple of them.

Some of the more severe penalties, like city-burning last 100 or 200 turns, which on standard speed is pretty much the whole game.

What is this city burning penalty of which you speak? I am pretty sure razing is no different from puppet or annex...

 

[Kriogen]

Couple of notes:
- one(1) CS is a freebie. Two is a bad, but just one is "for free".
- personaly I don't abuse not even a single CS.
- killing a civ is a harsh penalty, but only if others are in contact with you. If you are lazy with scouting and do it fast ... some evil barbarians did it
- who care if you have bad diplo rep. More important is, can others do something about it.
- never-ever break DoF. Huge penalty that never goes away. So be very careful with signing DoF. And AI knows that. It will use DoF as an offensive weapon.
- AI is programmed to use diplomacy to its own advantage. So should you! Fight fire with fire. Bribe them (give them gold, strat resource, lux for free) so they think you're a nice guy. And at the same time bribe them to fight each other. If you don't do it to AI, AI will do it to you. And based on OPs description, AI did it.

If you go for DomV or peaceful science, you must use diplomacy from T0.

 

[beetle]

I agree with most of what Kriogen wrote, but...

one(1) CS is a freebie. Two is a bad, but just one is "for free".

The 1st CS DOW is a freebie. But I am pretty sure killing a CS gets you hate from all the AIs. Actually, I have not killed a CS in quite a while, but mouse-over text is always “major” warmonger penalty.

It is rare for me to DOW a CS as well. It just seems cheesy, and I would rather be doing quests for them. But some maps they are practically begging for it...

Plus, if you save your one-free-CS-DOW, many games there will be the an opportunity to liberate a CS that happened to be conquered by another CS (or even an AI city).

 

[pacizou]

I'm afraid Bismarck is pretty out of the game by now, he has only one city in position of Islandia.
I'll try to bribe someone, but i don't think result will last for long, my game entered times, where everyone hates everyone, not counting times where they are denouncing one player off the map.
My strategy was to not accept DoF, because of duty to help other side, or risk of denouncement if not doing so, I wanted to keep AI on friendly, and not have DoF.
And now DoF is unlikely for me, and if I even manage to get it, it would repair relations with one civ, and problem is, that every civ now has 50% of other AIs as enemies, so after their denouncement i'll get stuck with one friend, and it's possible that it would not last for long.
Maybe my plan B will be "process repeating itself will fade away with time"? Would that work?

 

[beetle]

My strategy was to not accept DoF, because of duty to help other side, or risk of denouncement if not doing so, I wanted to keep AI on friendly, and not have DoF.

Not accepting any DoF is weaker play than accepting every DoF you are offered. Best is being choosey, but that takes some practice.
DoF has no duty to help the other side. Are you confusing DoF with Defensive Pacts? DPs are, generally, a bad deal.
Half the time an AI is being friendly they are faking it.
DoF open up a number of opportunities. RAs are good value for gold. Lump sum trades rock. And having a DoF makes it possible to stick the AI with the backstab penalty -- so the other AIs hate that AI more than they hate you.
The positive buff for DoF is strong with the AI you befriend, and a pretty good buff with AIs friendly to your friend. The negative de-buff for DoF with an AI that another AI does not like is pretty minor. (On the other hand, you probably do not want a DoF with an AI that all the other AIs hate.)

Maybe my plan B will be "process repeating itself will fade away with time"? Would that work?

It's unlikely.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Not accepting any DoF is weaker play than accepting every DoF you are offered.

95% agree. There are exceptions, most notably signing a DoF with the map pariah. In general, you get a negative diplo hit for signing a DoF with the enemy of the civ in question. Sometimes this is simple, when Attila is attacking everyone or Genghis is conquering all CSs, everyone is going to hate him, so not signing is best. In fact, you can get a small diplo bonus for denouncing him (which everyone else will, bonus from denouncing same leader) with the other 5 or 6 civs but a diplo penalty with Genghis (Attila.) There are some regulars that you should be weary of signing DoF with (the warmongerers) but if other civs, multiple civs are signing DoF with the warmongerer, it's safe to hop on the bandwagon, just realize it's likely to be a short-lived alliance.

It's unlikely.

seconded

 

[pacizou]

So, I think the best thing to do now is to wait for relations to get better, sign a DoF, and see what will happen next.

 

[sixty4half]

So, I think the best thing to do now is to wait for relations to get better, sign a DoF, and see what will happen next.

Just kill everyone

 

[beetle]

There are exceptions, most notably signing a DoF with the map pariah.

Absolutely, and that is pretty easy to pick up on. For OP, the pariah so easily could have been Bismarck. But at this point it sounds like OP caught that role...

There are some regulars that you should be weary of signing DoF with (the warmongerers)...

See, I like an early DoF with the know warmongers, provided the timing is good, around the time of the first Word Congress. You can count on them to DoW you during the DoF, so that gets them backstab penalty with everyone, and kicks off the chain-denouncements.

seconded

LOL. I was just parroting your earlier response!

 

[ShakaKhan]

Just kill everyone

In the OP's situation, this may be the most practical approach. Get some commerce SPs, go autocracy, and get the military-industrial complex up and running

 

[ShakaKhan]

See, I like an early DoF with the know warmongers, provided the timing is good, around the time of the first Word Congress. You can count on them to DoW you during the DoF, so that gets them backstab penalty with everyone, and kicks off the chain-denouncements.

True, and another consideration is that if you plan on being highly aggressive, it may be beneficial to have one consistent friend then several that will drop out. In many of my domination games, I'll take advantage of the opportunity (if it arises) to befriend a warmongerer even though gaining that one friend will alienate me from several. The reason is that some of the warmongerers are very forgiving when it comes to aggression and taking cities (Shaka and Attila are VERY forgiving, Genghis only slightly less so in my experience.) That way I'll still have 1 guy to get RA's with after PT and rationalism finisher. Plus, being friends with Atilla and Shaka can be more advantageous, they'll DoW their own mother for a nickel. It's like Kublai Khan said in civ 4, "Let us work together to achieve the total destruction of our foes, and only then betray and rend each other like the rabid dogs we truly are!"

Granted, you do have to worry about the out-of-the-blue DoW, but he won't do it if he's busy elsewhere and/or if you keep a few units that are more advanced than his near his border.

 

[Sclb]

True, and another consideration is that if you plan on being highly aggressive, it may be beneficial to have one consistent friend then several that will drop out. In many of my domination games, I'll take advantage of the opportunity (if it arises) to befriend a warmongerer even though gaining that one friend will alienate me from several. The reason is that some of the warmongerers are very forgiving when it comes to aggression and taking cities (Shaka and Attila are VERY forgiving, Genghis only slightly less so in my experience.) That way I'll still have 1 guy to get RA's with after PT and rationalism finisher. Plus, being friends with Atilla and Shaka can be more advantageous, they'll DoW their own mother for a nickel. It's like Kublai Khan said in civ 4, "Let us work together to achieve the total destruction of our foes, and only then betray and rend each other like the rabid dogs we truly are!"

Granted, you do have to worry about the out-of-the-blue DoW, but he won't do it if he's busy elsewhere and/or if you keep a few units that are more advanced than his near his border.

If you're going for domination, yes definitely befriend at least one warmonger AI. As long as you always fight the same enemy, you'll always gain diplo with them, and they'll ignore any warmonger penalty from taking cities of common enemy. Also by befriending them, you always can get a good deal when you sell unwanted burning cities to them. Let them suffer the happiness hit. Attila is especially good at this since he almost always burn cities and they burn quickly. Also by always fighting common enemy, they'll never have a chance to liberated gifted cities. It's possible to stay DoF with someone until the very end when you have to backstab to win the game. Of course the rest of the world will hate you, but there's nothing left at that point.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Also by befriending them, you always can get a good deal when you sell unwanted burning cities to them. Let them suffer the happiness hit. Attila is especially good at this since he almost always burn cities and they burn quickly.

Never thought of that, absolutely genius. Probably just shifted my whole approach to domination games. Additionally, if you and your partner can eliminate or at least maim everyone else, through Cult of Personality you'd have a better percentage bonus against the one civ that hasn't been knocked back to the Stone Age, assuming you can keep a constant enemy, which isn't too hard.

 

[docbud]

^^I do that all the time. I also do it when an AI civ revolts and becomes mine (if it's too far away for me to do anything with it).

In non-domination games, I'll sell a flipped city back to the AI it flipped from. When it flips back, I sell it back again. And repeat the process.

So far as the OP: Just go to war--it will be fun.

In the game I'm currently playing (as the Shoshone), Venice was my immediate neighbor (and I mean immediate--our borders were touching--and my entire emperor had him surrounded. Anyway--we were friendly at first, but he started building tons and tons of World Wonders. It was getting ridiculous.

So I did what any self-respecting player would do--I DOW's him after our friendship expired and took his capital and grabbed all those wonders. He had two other cities (due to him taking them over with GMs). But--a lot of the other AIs were friends with him. And 15 turns or so later, most of them denounced me, and three DOW'd. I easily held off their troops.

It's a really fun game