deposed?!?

[RegentBob]

here's the situation: a few hundred years ago, i defeated the iroquois leaving them with only their capitol city out in the middle of the pacific ocean (think hawaii). currently i am clearly the most powerful civ in this game-- i control the 1st and 2nd top five cities, etc.

out of the clear blue, one of my cities (seattle) has culture flipped?!? it was 4 squares away from my forbidden palace in L.A.! of the 12 citizens, 9 were happy iroquois workers, 2 content american workers, and 1 unhappy american worker. the city doesn't even border the iroquois capitol, in fact it is 13 squares away!

what the heck? i've spent the last few decades turning down embargo agreements against the iroquois, and actually gave them some techs trying to get them to cool off.

by what screwed up mathmatical formula did this utter crap happen?!?

i've attached (i hope) a screenshot. notice the only remaining (before now) city of the iroquois just sticking out from behind the world map.

 

[RegentBob]

try, try again.

 

[jpowers]

This happened to me recently. I had taken all but one Egyptian city which was on a little island in the middle of nowhere. I declared war on another Civ, and the next turn, flip goes the weasel. The idea might be OK (I don't think so) but the implementation of culture flipping leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[jpowers]

BTW, Kamchatka seems an odd place to find Cologne?

 

[cgannon64]

Off-Topic: That is one crowded earth map! Were you using all 16 civs? I am amazed that it seems that almost all of the 16 civs still remain in Industrial Age, and with most of their homelands intact. I would've thought most of the civs (especially in Europe) would be taken out, for lack of room. But then again, I've never played a Earth map to the finish....

CG

 

[Padma]

Do a search for the formula that is used to calculate the chance of a culture flip. It has been discussed many times.

But some items, off the top of my head:

You have 9 Iroquois citizens in Seattle It doesn't matter they are happy, just that they are Iroquois.

Nine "enemy" citizens, and only one defender. not enough to guarantee no flip can occur.

The presence of the FP has no bearing on CF. Only your actual capitol/Palace.

How much Iroquois culture did Seatlle have? Yeah, it's yours now, but did they own it once? If so, there is a certain amount of cultural "weight" that is carried. If it outweighs your culture in that particular city, the chance for a flip increases.

If you check out the formula, you may find that the chance of a flip was very small. If so, then you were merely the recipient of a very unlucky "die roll" by the computer.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

btw: the formula is in the FAQ... myguess would be you need >20 units to suppress flips

 

[RegentBob]

i did get the city back that same turn. all it took was a single cavalry charge. but still! the nerve of some people! i am definitely going to get some marines and go raze that island asap!

Off-Topic: That is one crowded earth map! Were you using all 16 civs?...

the map is matt's standard size earth map. i modified it by giving all 16 civs a starting location and setting the other rules back to default.

i like playing on a map of the earth and i like having as many other civs as possible. but i've also found i like playing on standard or smaller maps mainly because of the limited aircraft range. on huge maps, aircraft don't play as big a role as they should in my opinion.

 

[Gen]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
btw: the formula is in the FAQ... myguess would be you need >20 units to suppress flips

Actually, "only" 18 just to be sure

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Gen

Actually, "only" 18 just to be sure

wow, then he must have a nice culture ratio

 

[Gen]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.


wow, then he must have a nice culture ratio

I'm sure he has much more culture than Iroquis, but not knowing exact ratio, I simply multiplied foreigners by 2. I bet this number can be at least halved. Also, if only he could afford WLTKD, halved again

 

[gugalpm]

I think that civs with great culture should never be left with one city... they have to be destroyed!

 

[RedwoodTree]

this culture flipping crap is for the birds...real civ cities just don't "depose" people (and military units) like this...

you have to clean house with a civ whose culture is more than miniscule...

I really wish Firaxis would just fix this...I can see captured cities flipping during a war (for say, 5 turns AFTER) you capture them, but then no-more...

Give me one real-life cituation where a city that was captured "reverted" instantly to it's former civ state while also destroying the military units stationed in that city.

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by RedwoodTree

Give me one real-life cituation where a city that was captured "reverted" instantly to it's former civ state while also destroying the military units stationed in that city.

Well, the most similar I can think about is the Independance War here, but definitely French troops didn't vanish into thin air...

On the topic, some CF make little sense...go figure a city with 10 Aztec guys celabrating the WLTKD and deposing me!!

"Oh dear, the new ruler is SO kind!! we now have temples and Cathedrals, nice French wines and no more forced labour.

-Yes, but you know, I miss the whip and being drafted. Let's start a revolution!!"

 

[Silverflame]

I think its really unrealistic to have culture flipping when you are at war with the country they flipped to. Culture flipping should only occur during peacetime, not during wars.

 

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Silverflame
I think its really unrealistic to have culture flipping when you are at war with the country they flipped to. Culture flipping should only occur during peacetime, not during wars.

i generaly think the oposite, after all if your fighting someone, and your people arnt happy (read war awearness) why wouldnt they move to what might be a better CIV?

also, if a city is almost compleatly Civ "B" and your Civ "A" not giving them enough time, and money (lux) then why wouldnt they flip back?

 

[Palcho]

I don't know if Firaxis has done anything in PTW to fix culture flipping, but i've thought of a semi-cure (although i haven't tested it yet).

For all the culture opinions (i.e. in awe of etc.) in the culture tab of the editor, set the resistance chance to 0 for both initial and continued boxes.

Then set the assimilation chance for each government type to 100%

With this done, you shold have no resisters when you occupy a city and they should all eventually assimilate into your civ. Since i haven't tested this, i'm assuming that 1 foriegn national will assimilate each turn.

The only catch is you have to play a premade map/scenario.

Anyway, thats my two cents worth.

 

[sabo]

Yeah that happened too me with the Iroqois too, they had one city left and another city I captured from them flipped, I had to laugh when the advisor says "so and so city" just deposed our governer, they like the Iroquis culture better.

And here I had 35 Tanks surrounding his last city ready to fall the next turn. Not very realistic is it? In the real world Cities and countries tend to flip to who ever is winning...

 

[RegentBob]

i still say there should be a system of emigration and immigration (as discussed in another thread), rather than culture flipping. this would punish civs with low approval ratings by making it harder for them to grow and expand.

i, too, can't think of any real-life examples of culture flipping in which whole cities just switched nationalities, rather than trying to declare their own independence.

the closest thing i can relate to real-life culture flipping would better be represented by something similar to war weariness. i see a lot of mexican flags flying here in Texas and hear a lot of spanish being spoken, but i have yet to see a place where the border has been moved to include a mexican city located on this side of the Rio Grande.

a "unique" culture is fine, but how does it relate versus a high approval rating (i.e. a happy population)?

 

[etj4Eagle]

A slight improvment that I had mentioned months back was to have the rebelling city go through a state of independence before declaring allegience. Ie if one of your cities rebels, there will be one turn in which no civ controls it and the following turn it will join up with same the Roman empire. That gives you a turn to crush the rebellion and recapture the city without starting a war.

Now this should happen at the end of your turn, giving the other civs a chance to protect these "freedom" seekers from the cruelty of your rule. And of course the rebellion would also need to create some kind of rebel unit for your forces to fight. (and not loosing your entire stack would also be a nice touch).

Some minor adjustments in civ4 (the above and also a faster growing garrison function) and I think that cultural flipping will be fine. The biggest problem that it has is that it is being abstracted, and unfortunately there is not much we can do about that as the entire game is abstract.

Another idea is to instead have the citizens have a chance of changing nationality. Currently they can change to your own. But if this is a city on the risk of flipping, they could change to the bordering nationality. Then when you get too many foreignors in the city you would need to have a certain level of military presence to avoid them suceeding.