Dethrone Tanks and improve paratroopers

[K.F. Huszár]

posted by schwick:

If you made divisions for WWI, WWII, and Cold War tanks then you would have to do the same for all units in civ. Knights in 600 AD were hardly as effective as those in 1400 AD.

I agree totally. They should use cataphracts, heavy cavalry, early knights, late knights; and they should install WW1 and WW2 tanks.
HEy?

 

[Lennon]

posted by schwick:

I agree totally. They should use cataphracts, heavy cavalry, early knights, late knights; and they should install WW1 and WW2 tanks.
HEy?

I suppose we're actually on the same wavelength... But I'm also afraid that the majority doesn't see this as a priority.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Of course there is a rational point where to stop unit variety - but some more adjustments are really needed!
i think it is connnected with the time scale: e.g. some people (like me) never produces ironclads for that couple of turns till the destroyers while an ironclad unit's production lasts for 4 or 7 turns...
so, rebalance production time and scientific research time!!!!!

 

[bob rulz]

I like the unit model the way it is now, although I think they take a big jump between the Ancient and Middle Ages. It goes straight from horsemen to knights, which is easily the biggest unit jump they have. Maybe add like cataphracts in between? Also, make longbowmen the British special unit. Only the British really used longbowmen, and instead replace longbowmen that they have now with crossbowmen. I like the way tanks are divided now, but instead of decreasing their defensive power increase their offensive power. I don't like the idea of unit attack bonuses though, this isn't an RTS.

 

[sir_schwick]

ummm.... Cataphracts were unique to the Byzantines the same way Longbows were to the English. You could add in Heavy Cavalry, and Medieval Infantry should be renamed Men-at-arms. The problem with tanks having such a high defence is that heavy infantry assaults against tanks were quite effective in all but completely open terrain. Of course in '40 and '41 no one really knew that, but its part of why armies are still mostly infantry, with tanks for break throughs.

As for Spearmen beating Tanks, BRING BACK FIREPOWER AND HITPOINTS! Sorry I had to yell, I just have the feeling Firaxis isn't listening.

 

[searcheagle]

I am in favor of the idea to dethrone the tanks and mech inf. We have a number of modern units, it would be nice if we could use them. For now, all we can use the marines and paratroopers for is isolated regions where tank opposition is not there. If the tanks were weakened, the other units could be there.

 

[Vizurok]

A single TOW infantry beats a single tank both in defence and attack...

 

[Lennon]

I'm thinking maybe Paratroopers should be totally revamped, but that might also demand more advanced warfare to be implemented. But as an example you could have your Paras perform missions. Their main purpose is normally to secure airfields, bridges etc. Why not have these missions available? Drop some paras on the road leading into enemy territory (essentially leading up to enemy cities, since we don't and won't probably see my beloved supply lines anyway... ) and similar to a bombing run or an espionage mission, there could be a chance the drop could fail. If it succeeds, your Paratroopers have captured the road tile(s) and you can use it for normal road movement! I'm feeling this would make them more useful without totally overpowering them and it would also encourage the use of combined arms a bit further. Make them really expensive to build too, remember that they only come with aviation...

 

[BobV]

I've always felt it should be a little like the game "Rock, Paper, Scissors" You know unless you have some of everything you will be unballanced and susceptable to attack. Tank could be most powerful but defaeted by TOW and TOW might be defeated by infatry and everyone know a tank will woop the infatries butt.

 

[KabeDerlin]

Like checks and balances except on a military stature. I agree completely.

 

[sir_schwick]

I've always felt it should be a little like the game "Rock, Paper, Scissors" You know unless you have some of everything you will be unballanced and susceptable to attack. Tank could be most powerful but defaeted by TOW and TOW might be defeated by infatry and everyone know a tank will woop the infatries butt.

Unfortunately Soren Johnson specifically has said that he believes RPS is not a good idea for Civ and will not be included.

I'm thinking maybe Paratroopers should be totally revamped, but that might also demand more advanced warfare to be implemented. But as an example you could have your Paras perform missions. Their main purpose is normally to secure airfields, bridges etc. Why not have these missions available? Drop some paras on the road leading into enemy territory (essentially leading up to enemy cities, since we don't and won't probably see my beloved supply lines anyway... ) and similar to a bombing run or an espionage mission, there could be a chance the drop could fail. If it succeeds, your Paratroopers have captured the road tile(s) and you can use it for normal road movement! I'm feeling this would make them more useful without totally overpowering them and it would also encourage the use of combined arms a bit further. Make them really expensive to build too, remember that they only come with aviation...

Great idea, Paratroopers and other irregulars could be used to sabotage improvements or capture infrastructure. Could even lead to more advanced thinking in terms of combat preperation and amphibious assaults. Also, helicopters should be able to exfiltrate troops, and drop artillery and workers. In Korea and Vietnam helicopters were extensively used to create firebases, why not in civ. This would allow you set up fronts quickly or remove troops that were in danger. Additionally, mechanized vehicles should be field trasnportable by large Transport planes. Finally, re-base should be a free movement for aircraft since it takes a few days to for an air wing to change bases and makes current aircraft way underpowered.

 

[Bad Brett]

In age of empires II the opponent always send a bunch of pikemen against my cavalry etc.

This is also the case in Alpha Centauri, with infantry attack bonus against bases and the comm jammer option that gave you and attack bonus against fast units. But I think they should change the shield cost:

Tank (20.10.3 - 300 shields)
Marine (8.8.1 - 80 shields -Amphibious)
TOW (8.8.1 - 80 shields - 2x against Tanks)

Well I'm sure this isn't balanced but it would be really cool if you had like 90% infantry and 10% tanks instead of 100% tanks.

 

[sir_schwick]

All they really need to do is reduce tank defense values to half of what they are. I don't have time to play-test that right now, but it would simulate the fact that tanks are designed for offesnive maneuvers. Infantry hold the front, tanks break it. Infantry attack values should be higher too. Paratroopers should be able to capture infrastructur(raods). Helicopters should have expanded transport and exfiltration roles.