Devil's Advocate: is this the end of creativity in Civ?

One thing we have seen changing form CIV I to CIV IV is the diplomacy, and it is changing in a good way. But things can still get better. Multilateral alliances would be nice (something like NATO). Vassals were a nice add-on too, for example.

Maybe a family line if you choose a civic with a king as head of state, who has to find a wife and needs to get children (seen this once in a game demo, was it Total War?)
Elections with democratic civics. (Hawk party form CIV II)

Advisors (financial, military, diplomatic,...) that have specialisties that can help your state, seen something alike in Hearts of Iron. In the game there was a 'minister of foreign affairs'-function. The player could hire some people with there specialities for this function. In CIV V a diplomatic advisor with some cappabilities could result in other reactions from other civs when talking to them.
Example : a brutual diploamtic advisor could give more tribute when you ask for it, but less chance of signing a peace treaty.
Military : some advisor could give more production, others could give more XP's, ...
 
One thing we have seen changing form CIV I to CIV IV is the diplomacy, and it is changing in a good way. But things can still get better. Multilateral alliances would be nice (something like NATO). Vassals were a nice add-on too, for example.

This is one aspect of the game that can also get better. More realistic/complex options to provide a more "real" feel to the game.

Maybe a family line if you choose a civic with a king as head of state, who has to find a wife and needs to get children (seen this once in a game demo, was it Total War?)
Elections with democratic civics. (Hawk party form CIV II)

You will find a LOT of opposition to bringing back the Civ 2 Senate. Largely because all it was was a barrier to what you wanted to do-wage war. If you possessed a Demo or Rep government, it was impossible to wage war unless you had the UN Wonder. If you had the UN wonder, you had a 50% chance of being able to declare war.

If there was something in the game that tied that vote to something in the game like Imperial desire, emmenient threat, etc, you might see some people in favor of this concept.

Advisors (financial, military, diplomatic,...) that have specialisties that can help your state, seen something alike in Hearts of Iron. In the game there was a 'minister of foreign affairs'-function. The player could hire some people with there specialities for this function. In CIV V a diplomatic advisor with some cappabilities could result in other reactions from other civs when talking to them.
Example : a brutual diploamtic advisor could give more tribute when you ask for it, but less chance of signing a peace treaty.
Military : some advisor could give more production, others could give more XP's, ...

Could work. I'd have to see more details.
 
the suggestions for Civ 5 are sorely lacking. ...

That's four categories with no creativity, and one category with only marginal, petty ideas. That's not enough for a big vision. ...

Firaxis, from what little I know, is pretty risk averse. They have four of the best selling games and one of the best selling franchises in video game history. It's hard to convince them that change is necessary, let alone good. ...

As for totally remaking the game, that's exactly the point I'm making: they won't. Why would they risk making fundamental changes to a successful formula?

I find your logic pitilessly and utterly convincing. So much so that I would push your argument to a much more radical conclusion:

No changes can or will be made to Civilization because the game has now reached a state of perfection. The problem is that it's a "perfection" of the kind described by Oswald Spengler, not Gene Roddenberry: the perfection of a fossil or of a mummy. Civilization can no longer develop or evolve, which means it is dead.

The solution, though, is not to ask them to produce new versions of Colonization (Why? Anno 1701 already is "Colonization 2" (or "3" or "4").) No, the solution is to throw down the ultimate challenge to the Sid Meier and the designers:

Burn everything to the ground, rip out the foundations, and start over from scratch. Sack Rome and build Christendom. :king:

The only things we should be talking about are "big" ideas.
 
We have some people who say that Civilization should stay tile based, because that's a fundamental aspect of the game. Then we have other people who say that it's time to get rid of tiles, or else people will get bored. The problem is why hexagons or pixels would be any more interesting? Would a box that said "Civ 5 = Civ 4 without tiles!" galvanize the current fanbase? More importantly, would someone who'd never played Civ before give two craps if the box said "Civ 5 is a historical strategy game with hexagons"!

We OVERWHELMINGLY agree that Civ 5 won't be able to cut it without some big changes. But hexagons instead of tiles runs into the same problems as changing the economy from production/food/commerce to something else (raw materials/manpower/commerce). It's not just that it "betrays" 15 years of game play tradition. Nah, that's the least of their concerns. It's that it takes a big risk on an untested formula with a nebulous or vague payoff. Who cares what shape the tiles are, or what the inputs and outputs of the game's mathematical logic are?

Okay, so now we have hexagons. Now we have a new economy.

That's not the same thing as saying "Civilization now has religion, great people, holy cities, missionaries..."

That's not the same thing as saying "loads of new civic options: imagine a communist regime with freedom of the press ... or a republic without it".

At least we're all on the same topic, though. We SHOULD be talking about big ideas, because the small ideas will be boring. But the first test it needs to pass is the "back of the box" test. Can you describe it in one short sentence that you could imagine the average person getting excited about?
 
I'm not sure that the "back of the box" test is the right one. Some of the meaningless changes you rightly denigrate are easily adaptable as blurbs.

"... now with more ages."
"... now with more flexible production options."
"... now with cultural groups."

Those don’t sound very exciting to me. But, to be honest, "... now with religion, great people, holy cities, and missionaries" doesn't sound (and IMHO hasn't been) very exciting either.

So, piddly changes can sound good on the back of the box. On the other hand, some very big and possibly exciting changes can't really be blurbed. I think gallego's "you don't know what you're going to research" idea is terrific, but it doesn't lend itself to easy blurbing. "... now with blind research" is opaque; "... now with a different research path in every game" sounds frightening.

But then, I'm biased in favor of the really big changes, the kind that could only be blurbed with "Like no other Civilization game we've ever published." That's because, while others in this thread have said "Identify the essentials so you don't accidentally change them," I say "Identify the essentials so you can get rid of them."

I know this sounds vague and probably paradoxical; in what sense would the game be the same if the essentials were deliberately removed? I'll be back later with longer and more concrete thoughts.
 
I'm not sure that the "back of the box" test is the right one. Some of the meaningless changes you rightly denigrate are easily adaptable as blurbs.

"... now with more ages."
"... now with more flexible production options."
"... now with cultural groups."

Those don’t sound very exciting to me. But, to be honest, "... now with religion, great people, holy cities, and missionaries" doesn't sound (and IMHO hasn't been) very exciting either.

Pretty much the only thing that will Blurb well is changes to combat and diplomacy:

Now with Better Air combat, and 10 new diplomatics options!
 
CIv4 was a lesson in what not to do. Its like we went one step back to go two steps forward. Id like to get into this with much evidence but, my grammer editing would take a day to make as readble as his was :) Heres some basics of what I mean...

New artillary is no good so go back to old and find a way to make AI use and protect it. We can compare two ways now and see THe 'old navy' worked well but get the AI to conduct invasion with it. Do this down the whole list and you see Civ3 way was better IF, it was fixed not trashed...OK some new stuff has to be mixed in but really, more time spent fixing Civ3 would make better 5 then add on of 4 core would

Over in the that eyecandy section, it should be based on variey like cultural specific and time period related graphics such as mines or irrigation methods. We don't need meaningless effects like waves rippling or resources moving to take priority like it was in CIv4.

In CIv3, Think how dumb using the same mine icon from 4000bc to 2000 AD really is. No wonder CIv4's way seemed refreshing. The simple sh#t works though, its just some graphicly unique representation broken down in multi facets for max diversity was needed to fool us into believing theres options
Again like buddy said, Beauty is in simplicity. All that was needed to improve Civ3's '2 choice approach' on was add new choices in terrain 'features'! like resource refinments "suger into rum",that was a good idea that does nicley to sum up what I mean.

Bring reward systems like Palace and throne room back but merged seamlessly with building improvements and thier effects on your performance, whether it be through a throne room full of unique decoraitons of war dependent on what cultural's capital you sacked, or be it bonus's awarded for certain 'add-ons' to your castle HQ, The unique possabilites and apearences have got to be maxed out .

Hell keep the city view and the let the map reflect more detailed city growth then Civ3's '3 sizes' did.
Basicly For graphics, more "have the cake and eat it to " mentality is needed not a this or that approach. Hers where sequal benifits should come in , ridin the tech wave to bring more for the money. The option to Disable can always be implimented
I think its back to the drawing board and flesh out what works and fix what dosn't.

Though I liked the OPs throw down here. Nice read! I wish this thread was was the most read on the site.
 
At least we're all on the same topic, though. We SHOULD be talking about big ideas, because the small ideas will be boring. But the first test it needs to pass is the "back of the box" test. Can you describe it in one short sentence that you could imagine the average person getting excited about?

Civilization 5: Now featuring Tauren and Shamans!

EDIT: In all seriousness, why did we buy Civ IV? I mean, besides the fact that some of us are Sid Meier's slaves and will always do his bidding?

These are the features Amazon.com lists in the product description:
  • Civ IV comes to life! - Beautiful 3D world with dozens of fully animated units (including culturally unique units) and totally customizable armies. Detailed cities and wonders will appear on the map. Wonder movies are back!
  • Greater Accessibility and Ease of Play - An easy-to-use interface will be immediately familiar to RTS and action game players, and newcomers to the series will be able to jump in and play. Multiplayer -LAN, Internet, PBEM and Persistent Turn-Based Server (PTBS or Pitboss) offer players all-new strategies and ways to play when competing or cooperating with live opponents.
  • Team Play - Whether playing multiplayer or single player, team play offers a new way of setting locked alliances that result in shared wonder effects, visibility, unit trading and shared territory that delivers a plethora of new strategic and tactical options.
  • Mods and Community Tools - Designed from the ground up for modability, the game contains a powerful map editor with XML and Python support.
  • Choose Your Leader - Many Civs now have 2 leaders from which to choose, with each Leader having traits that provide various bonuses to the player and lots of replayability.
  • Civics - With the discovery of new techs, civic options can become available. Freedom of speech or slavery? Hereditary rule or open elections? This creates endless government choices and possibilities!
  • Religion - Now there are 7 religions in the game that are unlocked through researching. When unlocked, the religion spreads through a player's empire allowing them to use the religion to help manage happiness, gain gold and create Great Prophets.Great People - As the player uses specialists they gain Great People points in the city that is utilizing the specialists. Great People include the Artist, Tycoon, Prophet, Engineer, and Scientist. They can be used to get free techs, start Golden Ages, or join a city to increase its output.
  • Promotions - Each unit has a promotion path that emphasizes specific unit traits. Promotions include bonuses to Attack/Defend on specific terrains/features, movement bonuses, sight/visibility bonuses and increased withdrawal chances.
  • Tech Tree - Flexible Tech tree allows players more strategic choices for developing their civilizations along unique paths.
  • More Civs and all new Units and Improvements to enhance and grow your empire.
  • Faster-Paced Fun - Gameplay has been streamlined for a tighter, faster and more compelling experience.
  • In-Game Movies - Civ IV will have over 70 in-game movies and animated sequences.

What are we looking to duplicate here?
 
Boy readin that crap gives me puke gag reflex. Thanks though, I actually liked the taste of Toaster Strudel the second time.
 
What are we looking to duplicate here?
The point is what are we looking for that is NOT in that list.

Personally, I would like a more flexible tech tree. Perhaps not even a "tree" at all but some other system.

Anyone read any alternate history science fiction that touches on this? I can recall several good books. e.g.,
  • Steam-based civilizations, who never develop internal combustion engines but take steam to places that real life never did.
  • How about a biological-oriented civilization? Extremely advanced medicine and perhaps even to the point of genetic and DNA modification (maybe they're able to bring back dinosaurs and use them as beasts of burden and war machines, or maybe they adapt birds to large size to be able to carry a human), but they aren't advanced in the physical sciences at all.
  • What about a civilization that advances in what we might call alchemy rather than advancing in chemistry?
  • How about a culturally advanced civilization that ignores the sciences altogether?
  • Think about the Inca or Romans; the way Civ has "perceived" them, these were primitive societies, less advanced even than cultures in the Dark Ages 1,000 years later. However, another way to look at them is that they were quite advanced, simply in a different direction.

There are all sorts of interesting possibilities. The idea, regardless, is to allow a civilization to do things differently than "we" did. In addition, it would be sheer hubris to think that mankind has discovered everything, that we have not missed (due to "cultural blindness") some tech path that is very possible, to discover things that mankind has not. I think people tend to believe that mankind has discovered everything possible up to this point in our history, that the only exploration is to push further the technologies we already have. Call it hubris, call it whatever you want, but it is probably more likely this is not true than that it is.

Wodan
 
The point is what are we looking for that is NOT in that list.
Wodan

What I meant was: which of these items on the list are what sold Civ 4? If dh_epic is right (and I believe he is), we need to determine what the minimum impact our "one line" can be.

In other words, let's say "Religion" and "Civics" were the two new things in Civ IV that sold it to the customer; well, then we need to find something along the same lines in terms of gameplay to sell Civ V (if it was religion, then corporations could've filled that need). If it was the "3D graphics and fully animated units", well, then all we need to do is come up with "even better 3D graphics and fully animated battle sequences". See what I'm getting at?
 
The point is what are we looking for that is NOT in that list.

Personally, I would like a more flexible tech tree. Perhaps not even a "tree" at all but some other system.

Anyone read any alternate history science fiction that touches on this? I can recall several good books. e.g.,
  • Steam-based civilizations, who never develop internal combustion engines but take steam to places that real life never did.
  • How about a biological-oriented civilization? Extremely advanced medicine and perhaps even to the point of genetic and DNA modification (maybe they're able to bring back dinosaurs and use them as beasts of burden and war machines, or maybe they adapt birds to large size to be able to carry a human), but they aren't advanced in the physical sciences at all.
  • What about a civilization that advances in what we might call alchemy rather than advancing in chemistry?
  • How about a culturally advanced civilization that ignores the sciences altogether?
  • Think about the Inca or Romans; the way Civ has "perceived" them, these were primitive societies, less advanced even than cultures in the Dark Ages 1,000 years later. However, another way to look at them is that they were quite advanced, simply in a different direction.

There are all sorts of interesting possibilities. The idea, regardless, is to allow a civilization to do things differently than "we" did. In addition, it would be sheer hubris to think that mankind has discovered everything, that we have not missed (due to "cultural blindness") some tech path that is very possible, to discover things that mankind has not. I think people tend to believe that mankind has discovered everything possible up to this point in our history, that the only exploration is to push further the technologies we already have. Call it hubris, call it whatever you want, but it is probably more likely this is not true than that it is.

Wodan

Very interesting thread.
Wodan, I think you may have just inspired a whole new game "Alternate Civ I"!
 
What I meant was: which of these items on the list are what sold Civ 4? If dh_epic is right (and I believe he is), we need to determine what the minimum impact our "one line" can be.

In other words, let's say "Religion" and "Civics" were the two new things in Civ IV that sold it to the customer; well, then we need to find something along the same lines in terms of gameplay to sell Civ V (if it was religion, then corporations could've filled that need). If it was the "3D graphics and fully animated units", well, then all we need to do is come up with "even better 3D graphics and fully animated battle sequences". See what I'm getting at?
Yes, I understand. However, my counterpoint is that the "even better" doesn't necessarily work. (That's what was discussed by several people up above in this thread.) At some point, you have to break new ground. Plus, the "even better" does not meet the Firaxis criteria of 1/3 new.

It's easy to take an existing item and make it "even better". The challenge is the new ground, the 1/3 new, and that's where brainstorming really helps, and "outside the box" (literally, in this case) thinking comes in.

Wodan
 
Actually I think a hex-based tile system would be superior.

Nothing against the no-tile games, but I think if Civ went in that direction it would lose something.

Wodan

didn't i said that there would be some "give me my tiles back" reaction?
 
I have to preface this post with an apology: Though I will try to make it painless, it will be long, abstract, and short on sexy, specific suggestions. That's because I'm less interested in offering concrete ideas for changes in the game and more interested in explicating a framework that might encourage radical speculations and offerings from others. I've cryptically suggested that the best hope for the Civilization franchise lies in "burning it to the ground" and starting over; here, I want to explain what I mean by that.

Here, in outline, is what I'll say: Sid Meier's Civilization (henceforth: SMC) is a simplification of history; that is inevitable, and it is the secret to its success. There are, however, many different ways of simplifying history. SMC has gone, I think, about as far as it can go, and so the franchise would be better served by returning to first principles and constructing a different game based on a different simplified model. It would not "replace" the SMC game we all love, but would exist as a complement to it.

* * * * *

There are few games that show any flair for simplification. 'Sid Meier’s Civilization' is one; Sid was so brutal in his simplification of history that I sometimes wince at the game's inaccuracies. Yet the result of Sid's design parsimony was one of the greatest computer games of all time. A lesser designer would have succumbed to the temptation to pile it on. –Chris Crawford, as quoted by dh_epic
True words, and a convenient entry point for my argument. Any theory of complex phenomena will have to simplify what it models. There's an obvious reason this should be. As one Monty Python skit argues, a 1:1 scale model of a boat is not a model, it's a freaking boat. This holds true for any theory, whether in the hard sciences (as in physics or chemistry) or in the social sciences (like economics or history). Any resulting "inaccuracies"—aspects of reality that it does not take account of—are not inaccuracies but lacunae, gaps passed over by the theory because it prefers to explain and describe a specific part or general aspect of the complex world.

Now, a game like SMC is not itself a theory of history, but it does embody such a theory, and so like any theory it has these lacunae. There are, for instance, no "dark ages" in SMC; no recognition that different civilizations pursue and realize different purposes and philosophies; no intuition that a culture's metaphysics, social structure, and arts develop in tandem and influence each other. There's nothing wrong with this, because SMC is extremely successful at constructing one intuitive model of the way history works. There is, however, no reason that game designers (including Sid Meier and his team) cannot toss out SMC and its model of history and develop a different game that simulates historical phenomena in a different way. Quantum physics and classical physics complement each other; there is less cause for complaint about letting different historical simulations complement each other.

Hence, my first assertion: We would lose nothing and possibly gain much if the design team left Civilization IV as the last word in this branch of the franchise and instead set about designing a quite different simulation that embodies a very different theory of history. It wouldn't be like swapping astrology for astronomy (or capitalism for Marxism) but like swapping the Tim Burton Batman for the Chris Nolan Batman: different but equally valid interpretations of the underlying material—though, of course, some people can be counted on to vociferously prefer one vision to the other. (I'm a Burton man, myself.) And just as people can and will play different scenarios and mods depending on what kind of SMC experience they want to have, people could play "original" or "radically new" Civilization depending on what they were looking for in a particular game.

Now, this has been very vague. Let me give a concrete explication of what I mean when I say that SMC "embodies" a theory of history, and how a different game could embody a different theory.

In SMC, the basic unit is a particular thing—a "civilization." Already, by taking civilizations as the basic unit of the game, SMC makes a controversial choice: not all historians recognize "civilizations" as authentic furniture in the world. Moreover, SMC treats civilizations as a particular kind of thing, with a certain kind of structure, direction, and purpose. To put it brutally, an SMC civilization is a machine designed to conquer the world and/or put a man into space. Everything in the game—the cities you found, the improvements you make, the units you build, the technologies you research—is just a cog in this machine, and the object is to be the first to build the most successful such machine. This is why all the civilizations in a standard game of SMC, be they the Americans, the Egyptians, the Chinese, or the Malinese, are basically interchangeable. They race up the same tech tree, build more or less the same units, and indulge in more or less the same behavior.

Such is easily forgivable, for SMC works not because it is a true representation of the world and of history, but because it embodies a fairly widespread intuition about the direction and consequences of history. Call it the "Whig", the "Western Enlightenment", or the "Faustian/Promethean" theory of history, if you like; if you're feeling especially facetious, you can even call it the "Gene Roddenberry" theory of history. It's the idea that the history of mankind is the history of its progressive mastery of the physical world, culminating in its escape into the infinity of space. Whether or not you want to dismiss it as a culturally specific theory (a theory that would only occur to an inhabitant of Modern Europe/America), the fact remains that it does a good job of describing the general thrust of the last six thousand years.

Now, I don't know if Sid Meier and his team started with this theory and then tried to build a game that would let the player reenact the historical process it describes. But it doesn't really matter even if they didn't, because the game they created has structural features that can't help but give it this flavor. Those structural features are, more than anything else, the Tech Tree and the Victory Conditions. The Victory Conditions define the sought-after end state (a successful space launch or world domination—whether defined in terms of conquest, preponderant influence, or culture). The Tech Tree is the path along which the player picks up the elements that will let him build the machine that will carry him to the end state, and it defines and orders these elements in a hierarchy of usefulness: you move along it so that you can get the ever-more-powerful items that will help you compete for the prize. In terms of goals and structures, there is little difference between SMC and Milton Bradley's Game of Life.

Now, once you see this, you can see why some of the features that people suggest adding to the game cannot appear. A "dark age" would be a frustration and not an organic part of an ever-upward civilizational path. Geography is denigrated because it is man's ability to leverage his assets, and not the nature of the assets themselves, that matters to his progress. Culture is useful only to the extent that it extends the player's base or allows him to more efficiently exploit it. AI civilizations that pursued different visions of the "good life" would be poor competitors. And so on.

Equally, however, you can free yourself to see alternate ways of describing history and hence see alternate ways of setting up a "Civilization"-style game.

This is why I said in an earlier post that the best "big" changes would be ones that tore out the "essential" features of SMC. The essential feature is not that it is tile-based or turn-based or possesses a tech tree. The essential feature is that it is based on and therefore limited by this particular theory of history. True, getting rid of that theory and substituting another would imply making deep changes to the internal structure and organization of the game. But that is a sequel to the main change.

So here is the "framework" I alluded to above: Return to history, in all its complexity, with an innocent eye, and apply to its multifarious phenomena a (simplifying) new theory of how it works. Then suggest ways that theory might be realized in a game.

Again, this is vague. So here is an example (not a proposal) of one way you might do it.

In the first half of the twentieth century, Arnold Toynbee offered up a theory of history that (as in SMC) took civilizations as the central unit, and argued that they operate according to a single set of internal dynamics. They are, however, unique unto themselves, and always mortal. The history of a civilization is always the history of its appearance, growth, breakdown, stasis, and decay. That process, in a nutshell, works like this:

A civilization is a community the responds to a crisis by developing a set of customs, traditions, and institutions to handle the challenge. Human creativity (or perversity; sometimes it comes to the same thing) being what it is, these reactions not only solve the challenge but outstrip it. In doing more than just solving a particular problem, these solutions create new problems, which occasion new evolutions in the civilization. This process of challenge, solution, and new challenge eventually ends when the civilization encounters a challenge that it cannot surmount. At this point the civilization ceases to be creative and becomes deeply conservative and rigid, doing its best simply to survive in the sub-optimal physical or social environment it has created. The best it can hope to do is survive as a kind of fossil; usually it succumbs to internal collapse, often accompanied by external invasion. That collapse dissolves the unified field of customs and institutions, creating a fresh field upon which survivors and invaders will create a new civilization, albeit one that takes over or adapts fragmentary remains of the preceding civilization.

The best concrete example of this is Greece-Rome. That civilization arose in the Aegean following the collapse of the Minoan civilization; its peculiar challenge was the environmental one of surviving in the environmentally hostile Greek peninsulas. The Greeks met the challenge by creating economically specialized city-states. This solved the problem of material subsistence—by concentrating on cash-crop farming and manufacturing they were able to generate the surpluses they needed to pay for food imports—but it led to a paradox: the city-states were politically separated but economically interdependent. The Greek ideal of belonging to a particular polis clashed with the economic reality that all the cities were part of a single material combine; worse, it was a combine that was deeply embedded in the non-Greek world. They were unable to resolve this tension peaceably, and realized a "solution" only when, exhausted by fratricidal war, they were unified first by Macedon and then by the Hellenized Romans. The city-state ideal continued, however, as realized in the erection of Greek colonies throughout the empire, in Alexandria, Caesarea, Antioch, etc., but it was all held in place by an external imperial structure and not by any organic internal development. Greek culture continued, but it was a static repetition of long-established forms. In the East, Hellenic culture was dissolved by the resurgent Syriac culture and replaced by an oriental-Christian hybrid (Byzantinism); in the West, Imperial authority was overthrown by invaders. The remnant population there, after an interregnum of several centuries, gradually gave birth to a Western civilization in much the way Greece itself had arisen out of the ruins of Minoa.

Similar stories, according to Toynbee, can be told about most everyone: Egypt, Babylon, India, China, Mesoamerica, Peru; even the Eskimos and the Polynesians fit the pattern, he claimed.

The salient points of this theory are three:

First, the underlying pattern is not one of birth, growth, stasis, and decay but of challenge and response. Faced with a challenge, communities evolve complex social behaviors, which themselves often create new problems. The pattern of challenge, response, challenge, and response continues until responses fail. (Toynbee allowed that it is theoretically possible for a civilization to continually best all challenges, but he was not optimistic.)

Second, civilizations differentiate themselves according to both the nature of the challenges they face and the differing creative ways that they meet them. The Greeks and the western barbarians both faced the problem of surviving in a post-imperial vacuum. The Greeks retained their parochial inheritance by carving out city-states. The barbarians, however, lost their tribal affiliations in a nebulously unified "Christendom" that was itself an adaptation of the imperial ideal; "Rome" as a state had failed, but as a spiritual home it survived in the form of the Church. Ties of kinship were replaced (or at least attenuated) by feudal relations that were reified by ecclesiastical authority.

Third, because different civilizations meet different challenges with different tools, they develop different conceptual toolkits, which in turn open and close different channels for future evolution. Not every technical improvement can be realized by every civilization; or, more carefully, not every technical improvement is as easily adapted by every civilization.

In summary: Civilizations are complex social adaptations to particular challenges. They evolve and develop in response to sequences of such challenges. The process ends either when there are no further challenges (which is at best a rare limiting case) or when challenges prove insurmountable. At this point they lapse not into a dark age but into a crepuscular twilight of conservatism and stasis.

No, it's not a very cheerful theory, but it has the merit of describing a world that looks very much like our own. Could it be realized in a fun and compelling game?

That's not the purpose of this post. I'll just offer a few observations about how you'd have to approach the problem.

Radical change in the theory of the game would necessarily imply radical changes in its structure. In "Arnold Toynbee's Civilization," for instance, you would have to get rid of the "victory conditions," as civilizations never actually win. Instead, you'd probably have as a game goal the idea of putting off the moment you lose as far as possible. The player might win big blocks of points for making certain kinds of improvements or discoveries, but this would be balanced against a steady and accumulating loss of those points. The game might end when those points dribbled down to zero, and the final score would be a function of how many turns the player lasted. If this sounds perverse, remember that "Tetris"—another very popular computer game—is also one that no one has ever "won."

You would also probably have to get rid of the idea of Research. It's always been a faintly risible concept anyway, but a game like I've just described would have at its core the idea that new skills are won by performing certain actions: discoveries result from experiment, not abstract "research." It would, in a way, have to work like the promotions that military units now get in Civ IV, but applied to all units and probably also to cities. E.g.: If you want a new kind of ship that can cross the ocean, you would have to move one of your primitive boats a certain number of spaces; before you win the ability to build temples, you'd have to (somehow) generate a priest. The interface would work like a toolbox: to unlock these tools, you would have to do certain things. The relations between these tools could be made quite complex. You might have to unlock certain early tools in a certain order in order to unlock later ones. You might lose certain skills if you don't exercise them. And so on.

I mention getting rid of victory conditions and research not because I want to see them go, but as examples of how fundamentally some of the changes would have to be. Nothing would be sacrosanct: units, specialists, even cities might have to be radically rethought. It would not be like making a "mod" of the current game. There's nothing wrong with hanging on to certain elements if it seems like they would have a necessary place in the radical redesign. Cities, in one form or another, would almost inevitably have to remain. But, to repeat what I said above, you'd have to return to real-world history with an innocent eye but armed with your new theory of how it works, and begin designing the new game more or less from scratch.

If you've read this all the way to the end, you have my sympathies and my gratitude. :)
 
Very intresting, Mxzs. Reminds me of different-approach thinking such as people who adapted Joseph Campbell to popular products and contemporary real-life implementation of the theories. (Yes, I'm talking about Star Wars, among others.)

In any event, I think your approach would definitely get at what I was suggesting. That is, radically different approaches to a "civilization" and to what the player controls and what the goals of the game are to be. The current implementation of Civ (actually, ALL past implementations) currently do not allow some civs which both history, logic, and speculation all say to be viable. So, personally that is what would excite me about a Civ5. To some people, this might push the game into "fantasy" but to me it's simply a true implementation of guiding my civ. Civ is not about re-creating history, it's about what history could have been.

Wodan
 
@Mxzs: Wow. Just wow.

Interesting note: the "countdown in points" idea is actually in one of the Warlords Scenarios (The Genghis Khan one). Maybe we can already mod a similar game on the existing one?

I do have a problem with this part, though:
'If this sounds perverse, remember that "Tetris"—another very popular computer game—is also one that no one has ever "won."'

There's a huge difference, though, between the complexity of a game like Tetris (or Pacman, or Space Invaders) and a game like Civilization. In the former type of games, because the complexity is so low, people are more willing to accept eventual defeat. In the end, all you put into it is time and since the results occur throughout the game you gain 'internal happiness' throughout play (woohoo, I nailed 4 rows!). In Civilization, however, there's so much complexity involved (economics, fighting, research--no matter how it occurs, etc.) that there has to be a positive end-result. Otherwise there just isn't enough of a payoff to justify playing the game. And as someone who has lost a lot of games towards the end, it's exceedingly frustrating. The idea that the game is lost at the end no matter what you do, yikes, I just don't think there's enough masochists in the gaming community.
 
FAILING THE BACK-OF-THE-BOX TEST

Most of us didn't buy Civ 4 because of the back of the box. We either bought it out of loyalty, word of mouth, or because we actually heard one of these features described in detail. This thread is necessarily an exercise in stepping outside of your own perceptions as long time fans.

So, no, I don't think "more flexible production options" or "new hexagon tiles" passes the back-of-the-box test the same way as "religion". Even if I might personally think religion was a stupid addition! Yeah, anything on the back of the box involves some imagination. But there's something about religion that's easier to imagine for most people. And when you imagine it, it SOUNDS big.

To go back to the original post, this is actually a similarity between "small suggestions" and "fundamental change". Many of them only speak to someone who is really deeply entrenched in the game. You can't sell hexagons any more than you can sell two different kinds of mountain terrain -- even though the first suggestion is a much bigger undertaking.

BEYOND THE BACK OF THE BOX

Having something "big" enough to sell a game is more than just the size of the change. It's probably best described with an example. Wodan was pretty successful, with his suggestion of a more fluid research model:

Think about the Inca or Romans; the way Civ has "perceived" them, these were primitive societies, less advanced even than cultures in the Dark Ages 1,000 years later. However, another way to look at them is that they were quite advanced, simply in a different direction.

This sounds exciting enough that it could pass the "back of the box" test. It's not just fundamental change for the sake of fundamental change. It grabs your imagination: technology isn't a ladder, it's more like a maze of possibilities, choices, and dead-ends.

But after the initial excitement, there's one problem: nobody knows how to design a game around this. The Ancient Egyptians produced a battery. First of all, how do you create a technology model that lets you skip what would otherwise be half of the game in Civilization 4? Second of all, if you allowed this, what would this kind of power do to game balance?

If we've spent a lot of time so far shooting down small suggestions, then this is the biggest obstacle for the "big suggestions". They're exciting enough for a consumer. But necessarily scary for Firaxis. Firaxis won't change fundamentals unless it sounds like there's a fun and compelling payoff. A lot of suggestions don't catch on with Firaxis. Not because the suggestions are too small or technical (there's a lot of those too), but because it's hard to understand how the big suggestion translates into something that the player competes for.

Religion sounds exciting to a consumer, and Firaxis can distill it down to what the player does: technologies found religions, religions give a few bonuses, and affect diplomacy. But "fluid tech tree: imagine the possibilities" is almost asking for vaporware.

WRAP-UP

I know I haven't been offering too many thoughts of my own, and I've been cutting a lot of suggestions down. I'm not trying to crap on everybody. I'm trying to show that this is a genuinely difficult problem that requires a lot of creativity.

I think Mxzs gives us a killer framework that a lot of the big ideas play into, including Wodan's, and even some of mine. He challenges the kind of assumptions in 4X/Empire games that can draw the excitement of even non-gamers. Mxzs speaks to the historical imagination, instead of the technical imagination. It's complex, but important.

Read Mxzs's post, if you have the stomach for it. And pay attention to the important question at the end:

(What I just said) has the merit of describing a world that looks very much like our own. Could it be realized in a fun and compelling game?

That should be our jump off point for further discussions, IMO.
 
I would like to add to the discussion the first question Sid Meier ever posed to us:
Can you build a civilization to stand the test of time?

The gameplay (and the initial victory conditions of Conquest and Space Race) are predicated on this notion. If the ultimate goal is not to do so ... is it even Civilization any more? Does this statement need to be the essential anchor for any discussion on future versions of the game? If so, many of Mxzs' ideas may not be suitable for a Civilization game.
 
This sounds exciting enough that it could pass the "back of the box" test. It's not just fundamental change for the sake of fundamental change. It grabs your imagination: technology isn't a ladder, it's more like a maze of possibilities, choices, and dead-ends.

But after the initial excitement, there's one problem: nobody knows how to design a game around this. The Ancient Egyptians produced a battery. First of all, how do you create a technology model that lets you skip what would otherwise be half of the game in Civilization 4? Second of all, if you allowed this, what would this kind of power do to game balance?

Actually, I think this is doable.

Every 'tech' has three components:
Idea
Practicability
Sustainability

Ideas would be based on a semi-rigid tech tree. Practicability would be based on other techs that have been researched. Sustainability would be based on Civilization characteristics and ages.

For example: The Steam Turbine was actually invented by a Roman in the 1st Century AD (Heron of Alexandria). However, that does not necessarily mean that the Romans now have the ability to build Ironclads (they haven't researched the tech that allows them to make metal boats, ergo low Practicability score) and because the Romans of that time has been characterized as not very scientific, the Sustainability score would be lower as well (ditto Napoleon discussing the steamboat with Fulton).

So what does this mean in game terms? Well, what if we had a countdown point clock for a tech's permanence (behind the scenes, of course). Let's say if you maintain Practicability + Sustainability over a certain level for X number of turns, the Tech becomes "permanent" (you receive an announcement: "Your Civilization has Embraced Monotheism!") ... if it drops to zero, your Civilization rejects it and any options available from the tech disappear. Factors that increase Practicability include how many other Civs have this technology, as well as subsequent techs you research. You may even make changes to Civics to increase Sustainability. Conversely, prolonged wars may decrease the Sustainability of a Tech (fighting everyone for a couple hundred years you may lose access to several techs, i.e.: Dark Age!)

Here's an example:

You're playing Rome and in 100 AD you discover the Steam Turbine. You're playing an Archipelago and you realize it could give you a significant advantage against a neighbor if you could somehow get the +2 movement bonus to ships that Steam Power (the next "Idea" on the Construction/Science Tech Branch). So you shift your research to that branch in the hopes that Steam Power "pops" next...fortunately you're at peace, and your Civics have been chosen to favor Science. Steam Power pops, and since you've worked in that direction, Steam Turbine is Embraced. Your neighbor, however, learning of this, declares War on you. Fortunately, the War does not stop your determination, and by continuing to place emphasis in the same area -- and by building lots of boats while Steam Power is in effect (building units/buildings that are brought about/influenced by the Tech increases its Sustainability). While it does not get Embraced for several hundred years, you make enough use of it that you never lose it (until it's finally Embraced in the 16th Century when other neighbors have researched it).

Conversely, let's say you gain Steam Turbine on a Pangaea map. Rather than waste energy in that direction, you keep research on the Art Tech Branch in the hopes that you'll be able to research Sporting Events next so that you can build some needed Coliseums and let it expire without a second thought.

Final note: Only Embraced Techs can be traded, and when you trade for one, there's no guarantee it would be Embraced (the same Prac+Sust mechanism would come into play)

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention: while the Roman Civ above was working so hard trying to get Steam Power, it was falling behind elsewhere (the Colisseum counter-example). Thus singular focus may provide you a significant advantage in one area, but overall it may hinder your ability to win the game.
 
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