dh_epic's great idea: Removing workers (poll)

[Vizurok]

[/COLOR]

And finally, on micromanagement, I'll prove scientifically that there is less micromanagement if I have to. I'm perfectly willing to concede subjective stuff like "it will be more fun" (even if I'll stand by what I think would be fun). But I guess I haven't done a good enough job of explaining the difference.


OLD SYSTEM:
Decisions you have to make:
1. where to put the improvement
2. what improvement to build first
3. which worker will I move there
4. what's the fastest, safest way to move there
5. would it be more efficient to build something along the way?

Buttons you will have to press:
1. clicking on the map to move it around
2. click on the worker
3. use the keyboard / mouse to tell the worker where to go to
4. click on the improvement (or use hotkey) to start it
5. repeat x times for x workers on the same improvement
6. repeat for multiple improvements

NEW SYSTEM
1. where to put the improvement
2. what improvement to build first
3. nope
4. nope
5. nope

Buttons you will have to press:
1. clicking on the map to move it around
2. nope
3. nope
4. click on the improvement (or use hotkey) to *select* it
- new: click on the priority to make it happen sooner / later
- new: click on the map to plop it down
5. nope
6. repeat for multiple improvements

COMPARISON:
- the new system removes 3 decisions
- the new system removes 3 clicks, adds 2 clicks = net of 1 click removed
- multiplied by X workers, this is actually a removal of X clicks
- the new system involves less micromanagement, and makes room for new concepts

This is assuming that building a worker in the old system and drafting a worker into the pool in the new system takes an equal amount of time. It doesn't. Drafting a worker into the pool in the new system can be done in the main map. Don't make me go through this one too I will I have have to, though.

And this is another idea by Sir Schwik:

All settlements would have a different number of Municipal Workers:
1/2/4 for Town/City/Metropolis
Improvements and technology would add workers.
Technology would improve worker rates.

If not used for any construction, they will not cost any maintenance. When they work locally, they use 1gpt. When used outside their local duristiction they cost 2gpt. When used oustide your borders, they cost 4gpt.

Some stuff concerning where they are defined as being.

Local: Any square in or touching the cities cultural border.
Nation: Any square in or touching the national border.
Extra-national: A military unit must be able to reach the square within 1 turn(physical presence required).

How are improvement assignments made?

You would click a button(hotkey avaliable) to open up a small bar with the Improvements listed. An improvement type(Road, RR, Irrigation, Mines, Reforest, Deforest, Pollution) would be listed. Those could be selected by click or hotkey. Numbers would also appear on the right side of the Improvemehnt box, this would be your avaliable worker pool. It would rea dlike this Local Workers(National Workers). THe local worker number would be dependant on where your cursor was.

Whenever you had the cursor over the square, it would have different colors indicating what status the terrain improvement and worker situation.
Red: Cannot comply. No workers avaliable, not right conditions(irrigation w/o water).
Green: Local rates/labour.
Yellow: National rates/Labour.
Orange: National labour/ international rates.
Green,Yellow, or Oragne striped with Red: Corresponding rates, but you will destroy anohter improvement.

You would simply left click and the job would be assigned. Of course you could also manually change worker origin and such with right-clicks, this is jsut a less time-consuming way to do it.
There would be a limit on how many workers per square to simulate more moderate growth in cities.

Of course the costs may seem a bit high, but it will prevent civilization from having advanced road systems in 3000 BC. I always found that a bit unrealistic, even though I used that to hurry my early game rushes.

This system still lets you prioritize and micromanage improvement, on any square. It also eliminates worker to population exploits(feeding small cities from the river cities). Of course then a migration option should be allowed for cities that are much larger then local cities.

Link to the original thread

These arethe best ideas Ive ever seen!!! Maximal respect to dh_epic and Sir Schwik, who designed this idea! There were lots of 'arguements' about this topic and about 50% liked the idea and about 50% disliked it.

That's why I would like to know the answer for this question:
Do you want to change the current worker system to this system?

 

[Haradrim]

I like it! I would like to change the worker system. I haven't read the whole original thread, but I think it would really streamline the terrain improvement process. It would take a little getting used to, but i'm sure it would be better than the current system.

 

[knorman]

I especially like Sir Schwik's idea !

 

[Dida]

PW is the way to go for Civ4. The player can set a portion of the national production aside for the PW pool. You just need to click on the tile where you want the improvement to be built. The full cost of whatever project that you are building will be deducted from the pool up front.
If the tile being worked on is in your city radius, city populations can be assigned to work on the tile improvement.
If it is outside of any city radius, or in neutral terrotary, you would need to move a worker there to work on it.
If it is in your enemy's sphere of influence, the improvement will cost twice as much and take twice as long to complete, and you will need to station a military unit on top of it to make it useful.

 

[rcoutme]

This is the best idea for worker replacement that I have seen. One thing I might add to it, slaves! Slaves would be added as extra (albeit slower) workers for public projects. After abolition, slaves would either convert to population or simply vanish, either way it would be a way to implement slavery in a way palatable to PC minded Marketing Execs.

 

[Vizurok]

Thank you for your replies, please continue voting... (really!)

 

[Sark6354201]

For all you people who want to get rid of workers, go play Call to Power and then see if you are so keen on it...
For all you people who have played Call to Power and still like this idea, why aren't you playing Call to Power?

 

[Milan's Warrior]

Yes, yes, I am for whatever reduces micromanagement

 

[socralynnek]

For all you people who want to get rid of workers, go play Call to Power and then see if you are so keen on it...

The Call to Power method is not the only method to remove workers, but still I found that part better than the tedious worker managing in late Civ3 games

For all you people who have played Call to Power and still like this idea, why aren't you playing Call to Power?

Because other parts in CtP were bad (especially the AI).

Civ3 IS better than CtP in my opinion, but that doesn't mean, one shouldn't improve things in Civ3.

 

[EddyG17]

This Idea DOES NOT reduce micromanagement just yet,
With out movement points in your workers(what this idea is all about) do you want to improve a tile for short term results or another one fos longterm results, you could spent 5 minites thinkin about it.

Vizurok, you should have said that just to be fair. Not after what i said here was post the topic died.

 

[Vizurok]

Could you explain what's your problem, please?

 

[EddyG17]

It does not reduce micromanagment because...
His Idea (dh_epic) is based on removing the movement point stragety from workers, meaning that it does not matter how far away is tile you want to improve is as long if it is within your borders you can improve have a worker working in it. So imagine, you have a 10 city empire, do you improve all tiles for a long term result or for a shorterm result, you have, let's say, 10 workers, there are about 200 tiles that need to be worked. which tiles do you work first and how (long/ short term).
Next is that since workers are not a unit then what happens if you have a far away city in a island, how are workers suppose to get there? But this is a horse of another color.
Now Sir Shwick idea is not bad. It is brilliant and it add some breakers to dh_epics idea. But it still needs some tunnig. what if I am a very rich nation invading a poor neighbor, I wouldn't care how much workers would cost as long as the conquered cities are improved to my liking as soon as possible.
With the current system there is no problem with far away cities in an island.
Workers still have to travel to the conquerd cities and be build and they cost gpt.

 

[EddyG17]

I do agree that the current system should not remain as it is in civ4

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

For all you people who want to get rid of workers, go play Call to Power and then see if you are so keen on it...
For all you people who have played Call to Power and still like this idea, why aren't you playing Call to Power?

That was exactly what I was thinking when I read the suggestions.
In fact, while I admit it is most elaborate, I hate it. It'll result in a lot more MM, and having 'Worker' immeditely at hand is broken.
If you hate city MM, hope and vote for a smarter Governor. If you hate Worker MM, wish for a better automation. But removing those core elements would mean this won't be Civilization.

 

[Sark6354201]

Worker automation is already pretty good and with some tweaking could be fine for those late huge empires that don't need everything just so.

It won't feel like Civilization without workers/settlers/whatever works the lands. The concept is the core of Civ and them taking it out of CtP is one of the reason why the game sucks.

 

[Khan Quest]

Maybe the tile could have a "health" bar to indicate how many turns are left before the job is complete.

I will miss capturing workers. Maybe workers could still be visible on the tile and capturable. But with the new system, they could outrun mounted units in a single turn.

Could you pull workers off a job and reassign them?

 

[Vizurok]

@Khan Quest

Maybe the tile could have a "health" bar to indicate how many turns are left before the job is complete.

It should... and its written down in the original topic...

I will miss capturing workers. Maybe workers could still be visible on the tile and capturable. But with the new system, they could outrun mounted units in a single turn.

You dont need to miss capturing... workers are visible!

Could you pull workers off a job and reassign them?

Why not?

@Sark6354201

Worker automation is already pretty good and with some tweaking could be fine for those late huge empires that don't need everything just so.

I dont think so...

In fact, while I admit it is most elaborate, I hate it. It'll result in a lot more MM, and having 'Worker' immeditely at hand is broken.
If you hate city MM, hope and vote for a smarter Governor. If you hate Worker MM, wish for a better automation. But removing those core elements would mean this won't be Civilization.

@Doc Tsiolkovski
No, I never use governors AND I like micromanagement!!! This simply changes the way to do it!
I think it wold be Civ...

 

[dh_epic]

Eep, I meekly step forward. I think the general consensus is that something needs to be done when it comes to reducing the need to even calculate how workers move. The movement point game may be something strategic, but it's mechanical and repeatable, and hence doesn't really offer the user any real choice.

I'd easily sacrifice worker micromanagement strategy in favor of adding another really cool concept, like provinces, or economy, or unit categories with bonuses against other unit types. That's the whole reason I brought up the topic in the first place.

 

[Vizurok]

Hail to the master!

 

[searcheagle]

I would be in favor of getting rid of workers. The only problem (and this may be in the the idea somewhere) is how to make terrain improvements outside of national/cultural borders. Some terrain improvement are nice to have off your territory, such as forts, roads, railroads, etc.