N3pomuk
Warlord
So I was thinking today, did civ4 borrow too much from Call to power or ctp2? I mean except for all the fun future units... but there are alot of paralells especialy in diplomacy and the resources. what are your thoughts on it?
Did Civ4 borow too much?
- Thread starter N3pomuk
- Start date
romelus
NUCULAR!
i say civ hasn't borrowed enough, such as group combat and civic based land improvement instead of managing workers. civ4 at times still feels too much like all the civs before, which gets boring because most civ fans have been playing with the civ series for many years
remember "good artists copy, bad artists steal." I mean, Microsoft ended up being pretty sucessful.
The problem with borrowing from other games is that then you get complaints about that to. Oh, game A seems to much like Game B, even though they're a different series, why couldn't they do something more creative? Not everyone can be pleased.
The problem with borrowing from other games is that then you get complaints about that to. Oh, game A seems to much like Game B, even though they're a different series, why couldn't they do something more creative? Not everyone can be pleased.
King Flevance
Deity
I know it has little to do in regards to what the OP is actually reffering to but I would like to see civ 4 go more beyond "future tech" and allow laser weaponry and such. Would be a fun thing for mods.
I am pretty much neutral on the borrowing feature. Its been a while since I have played anything before 3 to remeber that well. I may have to dig out 2 sometime to look at it again along with the CTPs. I have lost my copy of ToT :/
I am pretty much neutral on the borrowing feature. Its been a while since I have played anything before 3 to remeber that well. I may have to dig out 2 sometime to look at it again along with the CTPs. I have lost my copy of ToT :/
N3pomuk
Warlord
well the thing is that I feel that alot of the new, amazing features have been done before, while old ones (like the way artillery worked) were left out and other good ideas (multi tiled cities real combined arms combat among other things) were opted out. Don't get me wrong I like how civ 4 is all set up, but there are just some great ideas that were around for ages and not implemented which weren't a part of CTP.
cheers
cheers
JIM G
Chieftain
They definitly should have borrowed the army manager from CTP. I'm finding managing large stacks a pain in CIV.
When someone else posted a list of features they thought were borrowed from CTP2, I posted a variety of other games that had them, as well. There seems to be very little direct borrowing going in Civ4 from the CTP series, and more of the general, "let's see what looks good in other strategy titles and grab 'em" kind of approach that all developers use. It seems perfectly natural to me: since everybody wants those features, it hardly pays to ignore what works in somebody else's title.
Lev Bronstein
Chieftain
I think that the creaters of Civs 3 & 4 INDEED borrowed much from CTP 2. No shame in that.
CTP 2 had some fine artwork & music. Indeed, in CTP2 & CIV3, the cities, military units, & surrounding countryside appear so much alike, that they could have been designed by the same person.
I also liked the roads in CTP naturally connecting cities-after they (the roads) were researched. In Civs 3 & 4 the RR tracks& roads being put on every hex by workers drives me up the wall. Less time for killing & other empire building.
Further (irrelevent point coming) I prefer hex maps to square ones.
I used to utilize the trade-in-for-credit policy of EBX. Gamestop purchased EBX & canceled that policy. Shortly after the appearance of CIV4, ---CTP1-2, Europas, HOI2, Civ3, SMAC, AOE1&2, COTN, Pharoah,RTW & several others ended in the dumpster.
CTP 2 had some fine artwork & music. Indeed, in CTP2 & CIV3, the cities, military units, & surrounding countryside appear so much alike, that they could have been designed by the same person.
I also liked the roads in CTP naturally connecting cities-after they (the roads) were researched. In Civs 3 & 4 the RR tracks& roads being put on every hex by workers drives me up the wall. Less time for killing & other empire building.
Further (irrelevent point coming) I prefer hex maps to square ones.
I used to utilize the trade-in-for-credit policy of EBX. Gamestop purchased EBX & canceled that policy. Shortly after the appearance of CIV4, ---CTP1-2, Europas, HOI2, Civ3, SMAC, AOE1&2, COTN, Pharoah,RTW & several others ended in the dumpster.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
I have never played CTP (either one) nor SMAC.
- Sirian
- Sirian
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
Yes, they did borrowed "much", conutary to Civ3 that borrowed "nil" from CTP series.
But that "much" when reworked with good gamplay gave us great game Civ4 is.
I apploud Firaxis for that.
But that "much" when reworked with good gamplay gave us great game Civ4 is.
I apploud Firaxis for that.
morchuflex
Emperor
Indeed, Civ4 has borrowed a lot. It seems noone has mentioned it so far, so I'll add one feature to the list: the new unhappiness system (no civil disorder but unhappy citizens just eating food while doing nothing) comes right from Master of Magic (the best game ever, IMHO...).
CIV 4 borroved ?!?!?!?!?
Assuming that core personel in Civ4 still is good old SID, all the way from Civ1 and Microprose - who had a stunning number of leading strategy games, and those basically form the core concept of strategy gaming today - how can he technically borrow something? all they can borrow is their own ideas and impementations, probably a bit tweaked by other games, nothing more.
That reminds me of watching Lord of Rings in cinema and yougsters row behind claiming that this film is all borroved from games of warcraft and what other titles they mentioned. funny..
Probably there were some games or ideas from what Civ1 and Microprose in other titles has borroved, but thats sooo long gone, if somebody can update me with history,, but claiming Civ4 borrowing something - well, yes it borrowed that yellow color from Paint application and alike, but sure nothing deeper.
Assuming that core personel in Civ4 still is good old SID, all the way from Civ1 and Microprose - who had a stunning number of leading strategy games, and those basically form the core concept of strategy gaming today - how can he technically borrow something? all they can borrow is their own ideas and impementations, probably a bit tweaked by other games, nothing more.
That reminds me of watching Lord of Rings in cinema and yougsters row behind claiming that this film is all borroved from games of warcraft and what other titles they mentioned. funny..
Probably there were some games or ideas from what Civ1 and Microprose in other titles has borroved, but thats sooo long gone, if somebody can update me with history,, but claiming Civ4 borrowing something - well, yes it borrowed that yellow color from Paint application and alike, but sure nothing deeper.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
As Sirian was there for the design and claims he never played it at all, I can assume that there was less borrowing than some assume.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
warpstorm said:
What about Loctus, Dale and I think few more?
All veteran CTP moders (and players).
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
Kurbads said:
Actually Civ1 core personel was Sid himself, then the Brian Reynlods guy for 2 (no Sid input), then Brigs and Soren for Civ3 and now Soren as big guy at Civ4.
The least change is between Civ3 and Civ4, probably becuse it's just several years difference in releases.
As for CTP series it had lots or original ideas, but also lots of poor implementations and game balance.
At least it was very modable for its time. But it was a kind a game you really "need" to mod to make it enjoyable.
N3pomuk
Warlord
So I guess the sound here is either "no" or "it doesn't matter, so let me ask you this what more could have they added, Idea wise, that had been arround in the Ctp series, SMAC and/or things they tossed out from the older CIvs?
I for one think That they could have done without the missle shield. with bunkers reducing the damage by 75% and the overal tendency of civ4 not going into the futere I think they could have done without this, they make nukes all but obsolete.
Further they could have copied moer of the civics from SMAC; what made this great was, IMHO, the Idea of having a series of atribute cattigories that you could become better/worse in by choosing your civics, and by some limited amount were forced into a certain type of play by the base atributes of a civ... I also don't remember anyone complaining abut this being not fun (who wouldn't love to see Isabella get a -1 in finance for her extravagant love of Religion, or monty a -1 on Research for his abundant use of military?)
cheers
I for one think That they could have done without the missle shield. with bunkers reducing the damage by 75% and the overal tendency of civ4 not going into the futere I think they could have done without this, they make nukes all but obsolete.
Further they could have copied moer of the civics from SMAC; what made this great was, IMHO, the Idea of having a series of atribute cattigories that you could become better/worse in by choosing your civics, and by some limited amount were forced into a certain type of play by the base atributes of a civ... I also don't remember anyone complaining abut this being not fun (who wouldn't love to see Isabella get a -1 in finance for her extravagant love of Religion, or monty a -1 on Research for his abundant use of military?)
cheers
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
player1 fanatic said:
True, they were in the beta (and vocal), but Sirian led the single player focus.
Crighton
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
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- 1,136
it's Civ 4 with an evolution from 1, 2, Call to Power, and 3 before getting to Civ 4. It's an evolution, some things get added some things get deleted.
Frankly I think they should have done a wee bit more borrowing from other titles (Star Trek birth of the Federation being an example, it had a rudimentary disputed borders thing which you could trade for and national espionage system which worked rather well*). Maybe kept the army system.
Personally I'm glad they ignored some of the future stuff from Call to Power. e.g. Under water cities. Yeah that was a brilliant idea, let's colonize the bottom of the ocean at tremendous expense late in the game.
*I'd be amazed if anyone other than I had played this game, let alone remembers it.
Frankly I think they should have done a wee bit more borrowing from other titles (Star Trek birth of the Federation being an example, it had a rudimentary disputed borders thing which you could trade for and national espionage system which worked rather well*). Maybe kept the army system.
Personally I'm glad they ignored some of the future stuff from Call to Power. e.g. Under water cities. Yeah that was a brilliant idea, let's colonize the bottom of the ocean at tremendous expense late in the game.
*I'd be amazed if anyone other than I had played this game, let alone remembers it.
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