[R&F] Different build and research order from Vanilla?

[WiseGreen]

I don't think building three slingers without the Agoge policy card is very efficient. Also, an early scout is better at getting era score and spot good city locations and barb camps.

If you want an early slinger for the eureka, why not go scout - slinger - worker - settler - switch to Agoge - build one more slinger per city. Then you saved hammers, have a second city, 3 improved tiles and 3 slingers. Selling your first early luxury is also an option to rushbuy a 2nd worker or a trader. Some people even go scout - settler. I still think worker is better because early Agoge is super useful.

I've been trying the worker-settler thing over the weekend, and it is good indeed. But (even on king, the difficult I usually play) sometimes you'll have 2+ barb warriors, maybe a slinger, coming for you before you get the Craftsmanship Inspiration, specially in coastal or heavy woods/jungle starts. So occasionaly you'll need that early extra slinger/warrior.

 

[Victoria]

So occasionally you'll need that early extra slinger/warrior.

Yup, you gotta be flexible, no point in blindly continuing with a settler when there is a horde knocking at your door. There is no one track regardless and if you want a golden age start you really need that scout first unless you have a lot of early uniques.

 

[RealHuhn]

Ok, after this start on Deity I'm starting to agree that delaying the slinger is a sure death sentence when certain conditions are met.
I experimented with this BO: Builder, Monument, Scout, Slinger with Agoge. The timing worked perfectly but obviously it was way too slow for this kind of rush.

I still had the save of turn 1 and replayed the game. Now I went with Slinger - Scout - Builder - Slinger - (DOW) - Warrior, Settler - peace deals. Met both civs on turn 5, got one embassy and friendly status but didn't matter. On turn 20 or so I got the double DOW again (two surprise wars).
Before that, I was lucky that a barb camp spawned pretty close where I was able to get the eureka for archery. Tech order was obviously AH - Archery. I sold my luxury and bought a second warrior, fortified behind river, produced a third one during the attack.

This was the only way to survive while still getting a settler out in a reasonable amount of time.

Slinger first was absolutely necessary to get the eureka in time. So yeah, I'm not someone who restarts a map until one super OP but risky build order happens to work out for me. Slinger first it is from now on.

Spoiler :

 

[RealHuhn]

Well, after playing a few more starts I guess it's an overall problem on Deity. Sometimes you just have to reroll. Going for archery without bonus resources or luxuries that require AH is also quite awful.
Couldn't do much against a Genghis rush with warriors and archers right after he sent a trade route to me and adopted Oligarchy. That was something like +14 combat strength -_-

 

[Esperr]

Basic default build order for me has been scout>builder>slinger or two settler.

Scout to find neighbors, builder to pop crafts, slinger to boost archery and,make myself barb proof/ go into an archer rush on neighbor or bad CS.

My basic order hasnt changed much but early game changed a lot. Magnus, chop plaza and AH in secondary city and settler spam seems to be the bees knees. With early conquest it comes out to 15 to 20 citys by 100, instead of 10 to 15 likr vanilla. Ive noticed SV hasnt really slowed down even though rationalism got neutered.

You get a lot of free hammers now from the AH, especially with feudalism. I feel like im back to 1.0 vanilla where you just fill in every gap no matter hoe bad the spot is

 

[RealHuhn]

Selling the first luxury and rush buying the first settler for 320 gold works pretty well on most starts. The third settler only comes a few turns later. That's three very early cities. If I go for a religion I stay at those 3 cities before I add a 2nd wave of settlers with the +50% card. Sure, it's not optimal for fastest science VC (if that's your thing) but it's a lot more fun and versatile and guarantees a lot of golden ages.

 

[vaejovis]

Selling the first luxury and rush buying the first settler for 320 gold works pretty well on most starts. The third settler only comes a few turns later. That's three very early cities.

The importance of settling on a lux or strategic to sell to the AI cannot be understated mainly because it allows for this strategy. Also, getting a few “loans” of 1gpt for 15-19 lump help shave a few turns off the top.

 

[EditorRex]

Selling the first luxury and rush buying the first settler for 320 gold works pretty well on most starts. The third settler only comes a few turns later. That's three very early cities. If I go for a religion I stay at those 3 cities before I add a 2nd wave of settlers with the +50% card. Sure, it's not optimal for fastest science VC (if that's your thing) but it's a lot more fun and versatile and guarantees a lot of golden ages.

This is an interesting strategy. What level and what size and type of map have you had success with this? It does seem like a good way to challenge the AI's edge in cities on the higher levels, not to mention helping with barb busting.

I don't think building three slingers without the Agoge policy card is very efficient. Also, an early scout is better at getting era score and spot good city locations and barb camps.

If you want an early slinger for the eureka, why not go scout - slinger - worker - settler - switch to Agoge - build one more slinger per city. Then you saved hammers, have a second city, 3 improved tiles and 3 slingers. Selling your first early luxury is also an option to rushbuy a 2nd worker or a trader. Some people even go scout - settler. I still think worker is better because early Agoge is super useful.

I may try something like this in my next game. I certainly can the benefits of early worker and early settler. But are you going to have the Agoge card that early even with building the settler first? Seems like it may be close, especially if you don't have the units to take out a barbarian settlement early. I'm hesitant about wasting hammers on a scout because I so often get one for free when my warrior is exploring early and enters a goody hut. Also, they are so vulnerable to Horse barbs. (I rarely build scouts but I have thought about doing more with scouts early if playing as Scotland, where they upgrade to Highlanders.) What do you build after the extra slingers? I'm thinking a caravan and a district that supports your victory goals, likely campus.

Now that the March 2018 update is out, it's probably worth asking if anyone has recognized an immediate need to change your build strategy further. I haven't seen it, but I have only played one game since the update. (Busy week.)

 

[RealHuhn]

This is an interesting strategy. What level and what size and type of map have you had success with this? It does seem like a good way to challenge the AI's edge in cities on the higher levels, not to mention helping with barb busting.

I play on Deity and had great success with buying the first settler, going for religion and getting the medieval golden age on turn 88 on standard speed/size for the buy builders/settlers with faith bonus coupled with Feudalism. After some brutal warrior rushes I decided to change my BO slightly to: Slinger (try to get eureka) - Scout (try to find natural wonder) - Builder - start Settler but do not finish it before you can buy the 1st settler for 320 gold (get the gold by selling luxuries and gpt if needed) - finish 2nd settler or throw in a quick slinger (should have Agoge by now).
The capital builds a holy site and spams prayer projects. Go for State Workforce to unlock Magnus asap.
2nd city builds a slinger first. Where you build the first campus depends on adjacency. 2nd or 3rd city should build another holy site though and you need one more builder for Magnus. With the religion (roughly at turn 50) I always pick the culture per shrine/temple belief because it's a free boost to culture during a time where it's most needed. Cities with holy sites build the shrine instead of the monument then. The +4 culture per temple allows you to skip early theatre squares as well. Enhancer beliefs like +1 culture/science per religious follower in foreign cities add even more boosts.

It's fun and it works well after you get the hang of it. With this strategy I do prefer the Audience Chamber actually because hitting size 7/10 early is quite important for early commercial hubs and industrial zones. Faith buying takes care of missing workers anyway.

 

[EditorRex]

I play on Deity and had great success with buying the first settler, going for religion and getting the medieval golden age on turn 88 on standard speed/size for the buy builders/settlers with faith bonus coupled with Feudalism. After some brutal warrior rushes I decided to change my BO slightly to: Slinger (try to get eureka) - Scout (try to find natural wonder) - Builder - start Settler but do not finish it before you can buy the 1st settler for 320 gold (get the gold by selling luxuries and gpt if needed) - finish 2nd settler or throw in a quick slinger (should have Agoge by now).
The capital builds a holy site and spams prayer projects. Go for State Workforce to unlock Magnus asap.
2nd city builds a slinger first. Where you build the first campus depends on adjacency. 2nd or 3rd city should build another holy site though and you need one more builder for Magnus. With the religion (roughly at turn 50) I always pick the culture per shrine/temple belief because it's a free boost to culture during a time where it's most needed. Cities with holy sites build the shrine instead of the monument then. The +4 culture per temple allows you to skip early theatre squares as well. Enhancer beliefs like +1 culture/science per religious follower in foreign cities add even more boosts.

It's fun and it works well after you get the hang of it. With this strategy I do prefer the Audience Chamber actually because hitting size 7/10 early is quite important for early commercial hubs and industrial zones. Faith buying takes care of missing workers anyway.

Are you going or a religious victory with this strategy? I wonder how hard it would be to adapt or Domination or Science.

 

[RealHuhn]

Are you going or a religious victory with this strategy? I wonder how hard it would be to adapt or Domination or Science.

No, with this setup you can do anything you like. The enhancer belief for foreign followers roughly adds 50 culture or science per turn later in the game. You can choose. Or you can use the faith to buy an army with faith, most likely in late medieval/early renaissance. With the crusader belief you can even get +10 combat strength near foreign cities that follow your religion ^^

 

[RealHuhn]

Ok I've just discovered this thread and how discounts on districts work: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/district-discount-mechanism.625743/

This is obviously amazing for this religious strategy.

Basically with two holy sites, you get your first campus for half the price as long as you haven't researched bronze working, currency and state workforce yet.
With 3 early holy sites, you can even get two discounted campuses.

Did a quick test run with Japan (discounted holy sites). On turn 57, I had a religion, 3 cities, 3 holy sites, 3 shrines, 3 archers and 2 campuses. Screenshots:

Religion founded on turn 48, 3 holy sites.

Spoiler :

The campus is now discounted (only 55 production on turn 50):

Spoiler :

View of the capital with the added culture for the shrine. Turn 58 and ready for a 2nd expansion wave. On Deity, you get the golden age on turn 88.

Spoiler :

 

[MarigoldRan]

Slinger first, pretty much always. Unless I'm the Aztecs. In which case: it's just jaguar warriors. Then... it depends. Builder second most of the time.

 

[Esperr]

I still cant get away from scout first, but i only play on standard or above. Finding blue, yellow and purple CS first is just so good, and hut gold makes slinger archer spam easier.