Difficulty at Emperor

[Finnagain]

Hello community.

I am in the habit of playing my single-player games of CIV V on Emperor with the full 11 opponents. I take whatever starting conditions I am given. I prefer fractal maps on quick speed. I think that is all that is pertinent, so here is the question.

Is there AI code that specifically causes an AI opponent - as far as I can tell it is exactly one, never more - to have roughly double the speed of advancement compared to everyone else? Is there a way I can prevent this in game setup?

Put another way, it appears to me that an AI can randomly get 2x everything. I end up getting bombed in the mid 1800s or something stupid like that. It ruins my games, and it happens better than half the time I play. The only time I can overcome it is if the opponent happens to be close to me and I have a strong enough start to go military early with Chu-ko-nu or longbows or something like that.

 

[Mattzey]

No it just means they're producing more beakers per turn later into the game, therefore getting advanced units before you, a few tips on what you can do to prevent the ai out teching you is

1) Don't wonder spam, on emperor you can get away with a few but overall it slows you down.
2) make sure your capital is set to food focus for the majority of the game, more pop = more science
3) I'm guessing you go down the tradition social policy route so after you finish the tradition policy tree off open up rationalism
4) make sure you're filling out the specialist slots which give you extra science!

 

[Finnagain]

Thanks for the rapid response.

Yes, I am doing all of Tradition - even with aggressive civs like Japan or China. I often finish the tree before I can get Rationalism though, especially if I am Korea or Babylon. So I generally delve into one of the economic ones (which one depends on amount or water) and then switch to Rationalism as soon as I get to Renaissance.

I am guilty of going for too many wonders, as you can probably tell by my culture accumulation. But the single amazing opponent is typically amazing from the very beginning, and not as an overall ramp over the game.

Example this game, Shoshone is super. As Inca, I met them when my score was just under 300. Theirs was 580 or something. At last check, I was at about 900 and they are at 1700. My trade routes currently bring in 3 or 4 science with them and output 0. It was 4 to 1 when I first met him. Compare this to Nebuchadnezzar in the same game who is showing parity science (and score) with me. Granted, I am not a science civ, but my population is enormous (8 cities, something like 100 population total) and I go after science aggressively. This game I did not go after wonders. I have Big Ben, Petra, and I just built Neushwanstein.

I have avoided combat almost completely.

What can I do differently? Thanks in advance.

 

[Mattzey]

normally on higher difficulties you will be behind in points, don't take points into calculation as they don't really reflect how well they're doing, normally if you play continents they will have conquered like 2 other civs on that continent and puppet the majority of the cities which gives them more science and also a lot more points for all the population and cities.

And when you say you have 8 cities, do you mean you founded 8 cities? because normally you should make 3/4 for a science/culture win, 5 at the most but even that isnt really justifiable unless its a multi player game.

Also the only wonders you should build are great library if you can, National college, Oxford, leaning tower of Pisa to get the porcelain tower and the Hubble telescope if you're going for a science win.

for example how much science are you getting at turn 150 and are you hitting the major science techs quickly like education,scientific theory, plastics ect?

Also what area of your game play do you think is making you fall behind?

 

[Acken]

Hello community.

I am in the habit of playing my single-player games of CIV V on Emperor with the full 11 opponents. I take whatever starting conditions I am given. I prefer fractal maps on quick speed. I think that is all that is pertinent, so here is the question.

Is there AI code that specifically causes an AI opponent - as far as I can tell it is exactly one, never more - to have roughly double the speed of advancement compared to everyone else? Is there a way I can prevent this in game setup?

Put another way, it appears to me that an AI can randomly get 2x everything. I end up getting bombed in the mid 1800s or something stupid like that. It ruins my games, and it happens better than half the time I play. The only time I can overcome it is if the opponent happens to be close to me and I have a strong enough start to go military early with Chu-ko-nu or longbows or something like that.

No, there is no spetial ai, they all get the same bonuses. However ai tends to have chaotic decisions, which mean that sometimes you will have one that takes better decisions resulting in a strong snowball effect for that specific ai.

 

[Finnagain]

No, there is no spetial ai, they all get the same bonuses. However ai tends to have chaotic decisions, which mean that sometimes you will have one that takes better decisions resulting in a strong snowball effect for that specific ai.

Ah, this is exactly the information I was after. Thank you.

Mattzey, since you brought it up, I hope to continue discussing what you bring up, if you will indulge me. I have SO MANY questions.

I have founded all 8 cities. I think I know the reasoning behind fewer, though I was unaware that 3-4 is generally considered the sweet spot, or even that there was one. In fact, the game I am in is actually a test - aren't they all? You may have noted that my population is sky high. This is because I am playing highlands as Inca. Furthermore, I lowered the precipitation with the purpose of starting in desert/hills. I went desert folklore and then raced for Petra. My terrace farms are incredibly productive. In my capital, after aluminum, my terrace farm hexes on rivers now produce 5-6 food, 4 hammers, 1 faith. (Do terrace farms max out at 6? I think they might.) Even unimproved desert/hill hexes start at 1 food, 4 hammers, and 1 faith. The terrace farms in other cities are also very productive, though not that high. And I have loads of them. This is my tactic.

But the strategy is to see if I can go for science by going lots of cities and huge population. Once I get the science and food buildings in place for each city, I am converting 1/4 hammers to science on most turns. I get there fast too because of the super productive territory. I have been staying just barely above zero for happiness because of the huge population.

The game is still early, so I do not know if this can work, but I would love to hear from the wisdom of others. Has this been tried? Could it work in a less ideal environment? Is there a more ideal environment?

 

[Acken]

Of course this has been tried. The problem is the happiness. Good science requires good pop so you need extra happiness for all these extra cities. This is usually very hard to achieve in normal situations... which is why people usually dont build more than 6 and often stay at 4.

Im pretty sure you are forced to take pagodas if youre attempting to see where 8 cities lead you.

Problem is that every city increase science cost and therefore to at least offset the penalty you need a city with a high enough population... 4his cost a lot of happiness for usually marginal benefits.

In the end unless you really know what youre doing and want to experiment to see where this goes, I would strongly advise against this. You would do better sticking to the bread and butter 4 cities and grow these well to achieve decent science times. Once youre there with more experience you will make exotic ideas work better.

 

[Mattzey]

What acken said is pretty much right, how ever if half of the cities were founded by you and the other 4 were puppeted from another civ, that is more reasonable because they can really contribute to science and all they pretty much do is grow, so if you want more than 4 cities just conquer the ai cities, then raze the bad ones and keep the capitals and other strong cities

 

[anthropophage]

(Do terrace farms max out at 6? I think they might.)

The highest you can get is 8. 1 base, 1 for civil service/fertiliser, one from petra, and one for each adjacent mountain. So if you can locate a cul-de-sac in the mountains you can get a super powered terrace farm.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I play at Emperor too, and I think somebody builds The Great Library asap in every game (I rarely bother to go after it myself). I imagine an AI Civ focusing on science could jump out to an early lead that way, and if they don't get rolled by a military Civ, that early edge could easily snowball into the Industrial era. The Hanging Gardens would really compound the effect, although that one doesn't seem as popular with the AI and I would be surprised if anyone built both. The AI tends to build Wonders in its capital, so you can easily keep an eye on their population with an embassy.

It sounds like you already use trade routes and spies for science, so that's good. For me, being too pacificist was a mistake I made as I moved up the difficulty. I find that if I try to just develop my civ in peace, I lose the footrace and end up having to fight a defensive war with outdated equipment (for some reason, WWI-era wars happen a lot in my games). Periodically kicking an AI Civ in the kneecap can help slow their growth just enough.

 

[Aibeit]

I would try playin with fewer opponents. Having 12 civs on the map increases the likelyhood of a runaway civ at the other end of the map that you don't meet or can't do much about until its too late.

 

[Finnagain]

The highest you can get is 8. 1 base, 1 for civil service/fertiliser, one from petra, and one for each adjacent mountain. So if you can locate a cul-de-sac in the mountains you can get a super powered terrace farm.

Are you certain of this? As in, have you any practical experience with it? I ask because I have a terrace farm that was producing 6 before fertilizer and still 6 afterwards. In addition, I have one that has the dream location - mountains on five sides. After fertilizer, it should start higher than 6. It generates 6 also.

I would try playin with fewer opponents. Having 12 civs on the map increases the likelyhood of a runaway civ at the other end of the map that you don't meet or can't do much about until its too late.

This is definitely true. I have tried immortal with three opponents, and that is a good challenge. But I do not like the style of game I must play to compete. As the difficulty goes up, there is a marked narrowing of strategies that can work.

It sounds like you already use trade routes and spies for science, so that's good. For me, being too pacificist was a mistake I made as I moved up the difficulty. I find that if I try to just develop my civ in peace, I lose the footrace and end up having to fight a defensive war with outdated equipment (for some reason, WWI-era wars happen a lot in my games). Periodically kicking an AI Civ in the kneecap can help slow their growth just enough.

That is an interesting thing to say. I typically don't go aggro until I have artillery if I can manage it.

 

[geolawyerman]

How early are you building national college and universities?

 

[kb27787]

Are you certain of this? As in, have you any practical experience with it? I ask because I have a terrace farm that was producing 6 before fertilizer and still 6 afterwards. In addition, I have one that has the dream location - mountains on five sides. After fertilizer, it should start higher than 6. It generates 6 also.

This is definitely true. I have tried immortal with three opponents, and that is a good challenge. But I do not like the style of game I must play to compete. As the difficulty goes up, there is a marked narrowing of strategies that can work.

That is an interesting thing to say. I typically don't go aggro until I have artillery if I can manage it.

Fertilizer will only give +1 food for farms WITHOUT freshwater (river, lake, or oasis); otherwise the extra 1 food is gained upon civil service, a much earlier tech.

(now granted, with Petra, a desert hill terrace farm in the mountains is 9 food (however I doubt your workers can get in a place surrounded by 6 mountains so it's all only theoretical; so highest practical is 8... of course, unless you capture a Carthaginian worker who just happens to be in that spot with your helicopter gunship...) Aside from Lake Victoria as Spain, the only tile capable of producing something like that is a flood plains wheat with granary and double Sun God pantheon via religious tolerance "bug" which also totals out to 8 food.

In any case even on Immortal you can try many different strats because the AI is so incompetent; problem is you need to get that tech lead first while still having good infrastructure, and only then you can do whatever you want.
Or... you can do something completely crazy as well... (people can pull off ICS sacred sites on Immortal so on Emperor it's just cake)

 

[salocin097]

Fertilizer will only give +1 food for farms WITHOUT freshwater (river, lake, or oasis); otherwise the extra 1 food is gained upon civil service, a much earlier tech.

So pre Civil Service and post Fertilizer, farms are identical regardless of access to fresh water? Are there any wonders/buildings that require one or the other?

 

[EgonSpengler]

That is an interesting thing to say. I typically don't go aggro until I have artillery if I can manage it.

Yeah, I find my most successful games involve winning an early war. Managing the War Monger penalties takes a little maneuvering, but it's not too hard to do.

• The bigger penalties tend to come from capturing enemy cities, so if you just steal a worker, kill a few military units, break a few tile improvements and roads, then take a peace deal for 30 turns of a Luxury and some gold, you can wait out the war monger penalties.
• War Monger penalties only apply to Civs you've met, so an early war may go entirely unnoticed by a majority of your opponents.
• An early Warrior transformed into a Spearman by a hut can be powerful. And if you're playing the Shoshone, a Pathfinder upgrades to a Composite Bowman, which is nearly an unstoppable killing machine when other Civs have Warriors and cities without walls.
• If you accept another Civ's request to declare war, penalties are reduced.
• If you liberate a city and return it to its original owner, War Monger penalties you've previously accrued can be eliminated.

An unusually successful, but illustrative example from a recent game: Assyria declared on Denmark and took Copenhagen and Aarhus, leaving Denmark on the brink. I declared on Assyria, took Copenhagen and Aarhus, liberated Aarhus for Denmark, and then accepted a peace deal with Assyria. So I ended up with Copenhagen, some money & luxuries from Assyria, no War Monger penalty with anyone, and Harald was my BFF for a while. Both Assyria and Denmark were exhausted and broke and had to rebuild their militaries, were basically done for that game, and I could still use them as nearby trading partners. This was all in the Classical Era.

 

[Finnagain]

Yeah, I find my most successful games involve winning an early war. Managing the War Monger penalties takes a little maneuvering, but it's not too hard to do.

• The bigger penalties tend to come from capturing enemy cities, so if you just steal a worker, kill a few military units, break a few tile improvements and roads, then take a peace deal for 30 turns of a Luxury and some gold, you can wait out the war monger penalties.
• War Monger penalties only apply to Civs you've met, so an early war may go entirely unnoticed by a majority of your opponents.
• An early Warrior transformed into a Spearman by a hut can be powerful. And if you're playing the Shoshone, a Pathfinder upgrades to a Composite Bowman, which is nearly an unstoppable killing machine when other Civs have Warriors and cities without walls.
• If you accept another Civ's request to declare war, penalties are reduced.
• If you liberate a city and return it to its original owner, War Monger penalties you've previously accrued can be eliminated.

An unusually successful, but illustrative example from a recent game: Assyria declared on Denmark and took Copenhagen and Aarhus, leaving Denmark on the brink. I declared on Assyria, took Copenhagen and Aarhus, liberated Aarhus for Denmark, and then accepted a peace deal with Assyria. So I ended up with Copenhagen, some money & luxuries from Assyria, no War Monger penalty with anyone, and Harald was my BFF for a while. Both Assyria and Denmark were exhausted and broke and had to rebuild their militaries, were basically done for that game, and I could still use them as nearby trading partners. This was all in the Classical Era.

Frankly, I'm not good enough at this game to appreciate all of this information yet. I do not take AI friendliness into much consideration for any of my actions. I suppose this very conversation is part of me breaching the next level, so to speak. But naturally, I can't respond with an opinion on this. Thanks for the info. I shall try to make sense of it.

So pre Civil Service and post Fertilizer, farms are identical regardless of access to fresh water? Are there any wonders/buildings that require one or the other?

This is true about the farms. Eventually it all works out the same. But the intervening time is very important, and will usually have a significant effect on your population. So you should still build farms on water in the early game.

In any case even on Immortal you can try many different strats because the AI is so incompetent; problem is you need to get that tech lead first while still having good infrastructure, and only then you can do whatever you want.
Or... you can do something completely crazy as well... (people can pull off ICS sacred sites on Immortal so on Emperor it's just cake)

Like I said in this same post, maybe YOU can. But I am really only competent in my comfort zone atm. I suck at diplomatic and tourism victory. And I do not think I have the ability for a turnaround jump shot while I am busying myself understanding free throws. I am looking forward to lots of experiments to try other stuff out though. So many valuable hours for the purchase price. Also, have you actually seen a number higher than 6 food on a farm? I can't seem to get beyond 6, so I wonder if I have made a mistake somewhere.

 

[Aibeit]

Also, have you actually seen a number higher than 6 food on a farm? I can't seem to get beyond 6, so I wonder if I have made a mistake somewhere.

6 is the maximum you will usually get to (Wheat on Grassland or Flood Plains (3 Food), with a Farm (+2 Food) and in a city with a Granary (+1 Food)).

The only way to get more than that, you have to get the Sun God Pantheon, but the Problem with that Pantheon is if you pick it, you have no faith pantheon, so it's very unlikely that you'll get a Religion, which means you probably won't be keeping the Pantheon for very long.

Chances are if you've never seen a Farm with more than 6 Food, that's because you've never seen the very unlikely combination of circumstances that would give you more than 6 Food, not because you're doing something wrong.

Want a tile with a LOT of Food? Play as Spain and settle next to lake Victoria

 

[Mattzey]

6 is the maximum you will usually get to (Wheat on Grassland or Flood Plains (3 Food), with a Farm (+2 Food) and in a city with a Granary (+1 Food)).

The only way to get more than that, you have to get the Sun God Pantheon, but the Problem with that Pantheon is if you pick it, you have no faith pantheon, so it's very unlikely that you'll get a Religion, which means you probably won't be keeping the Pantheon for very long.

Chances are if you've never seen a Farm with more than 6 Food, that's because you've never seen the very unlikely combination of circumstances that would give you more than 6 Food, not because you're doing something wrong.

Want a tile with a LOT of Food? Play as Spain and settle next to lake Victoria

i'd suggest getting that sometimes if you play diety, because normally you cant found a religion anyway

 

[EgonSpengler]

I do not take AI friendliness into much consideration for any of my actions.

I recommend looking into the diplomacy stuff. I find it invaluable. Relating it back to your science & technology question, you need to have made Declarations of Friendship to sign Research Agreements, and I imagine the mid-to-late game would be much tougher without those.