Difficulty vs. Game speed

[teakbois]

There has been some scattered discussion in other threads about this, figured it would be better to get a focused thread than clutter up other threads.

A lot of people like the slower game speeds (Snail and slower) because otherwise the techs come to fast. And even on Snail they go by way too fast. However it seems that the longer game speeds also make things easier.

This is consistent with civ games in general, the slower game speeds have always tended to be easier.

Questions:

Do other people feel this way?

Is there anything that should/could be done about it? Such as a and reduction (for players only) on higher speeds at higher difficulty levels?

 

[Yudishtira]

There has been some scattered discussion in other threads about this, figured it would be better to get a focused thread than clutter up other threads.

A lot of people like the slower game speeds (Snail and slower) because otherwise the techs come to fast. And even on Snail they go by way too fast. However it seems that the longer game speeds also make things easier.

This is consistent with civ games in general, the slower game speeds have always tended to be easier.

Questions:

Do other people feel this way?

Is there anything that should/could be done about it? Such as a and reduction (for players only) on higher speeds at higher difficulty levels?

I'm on SVN6493, Marathon, Deity, in late Renaissance. On 50% tax I'd have over 16K gpt coming in. That's 16K too much! And it's way worse than the last two versions I played (v29 and SVN6248). Previously I've been comfortable at 0% tax, but I've never had multiple thousands per turn surplus (at 0% tax I'm +6000 now). So yes something needs to be done.

I seem to be streaking ahead in tech too, so some more difficulty-level penalties there would not be unwelcome.(corrected vv below)

Even if the penalties were only on Deity, I'd settle for that. I don't understand why anyone would want Deity to be this easy.

 

[ls612]

I'm on SVN6493, Marathon, Deity, in late Renaissance. On 50% tax I'd have over 16K gpt coming in. That's 16K too much! And it's way worse than the last two versions I played (v29 and SVN6248). Previously I've been comfortable at 0% tax, but I've never had multiple thousands per turn surplus (at 0% tax I'm +6000 now). So yes something needs to be done.

I seem to be streaking ahead in tech too, so some more difficulty-level penalties there would not be unwelcome.

Even if the penalties were only on Deity, I'd settle for that. I don't understand why anyone would want Deity to be this easy.

How large are you compared to the AIs? I would disagree that you have 16K too much gold per turn at 50% tax (if you are giving up that much research you should certainly have something to show for it). However it may just be that you are too big and the AI opponents are too small.

On Marathon at any rate there is not a modifier applied to how much gold you make. On slower speeds you get less gpt, and on faster speeds you get more.

 

[Yudishtira]

How large are you compared to the AIs? I would disagree that you have 16K too much gold per turn at 50% tax (if you are giving up that much research you should certainly have something to show for it). However it may just be that you are too big and the AI opponents are too small.

Even if it is because of how large I am, the fact remains that my gold situation is way too easy for Deity. As I said, I'm +6000pt at 0% tax, and I should be at least -6000gpt at that rate (more like -10000). The reward I should get for forgoing half my research should be to break even!!!

On Marathon at any rate there is not a modifier applied to how much gold you make. On slower speeds you get less gpt, and on faster speeds you get more.

The question wasn't "is there a modifier?", it was "should there be?"...

I seem to be streaking ahead in tech too, so some more difficulty-level penalties there would not be unwelcome.

Okay scratch that. If my gold per turn was sufficiently negative at 0% tax (-5000 at the very least), that would be enough of a research penalty...

 

[JosEPh_II]

@ Yud,
How was your gold/turn prior to the Ren Era?

To be honest the mod has not been thoroughly balanced beyond Medieval. So when you hit Ren Era and beyond, things like gold/turn vs Research slider position are not optimal. Since you play Deity on Marathon, but neglected to give Map type and size plus number of opponents, it's not so simple to say 6K gold/ turn at 50% research is too much or not. I would bet you are the largest empire with the Tech lead and have built a majority of the Wonders too. All those factors skews your particular view. Not that I'm disagreeing with you at all, but all these other factors Must be figured in as well to get a better idea of balance. How is the AI doing in your game? Are they making approximately the same as you with similar Research slider settings? These are things that need data from as well.

I generally play monarch on epic or normal, but I rarely make it to the Ren Era in any game I've played for several years now. You would think I would on faster game speeds but there is always something new added that breaks my games from continuing any further with them or I know the outcome is settled by then. (I never use mastery victory condition. And at most only use 3 or 4 Victory conditions at all).

Overarching statements, from one particular style and set up, to be applied to a Mod as varied as this one has caused serious problems in the past. Details, Details, and more details from each style of play is what is needed to start addressing balance in all gamespeeds at all difficulty levels in all eras. But this takes a tremendous amount of effort to collate this info into a coherent and useful measuring stick for the overall mod balance.

Also since the majority of the Modders (with SO the exception, he also plays epic and sometimes normal like I do)) playing on Snail game speed almost exclusively that measuring stick is rather bent in how it sees and measures balance in this game.

If you are running away from the AI in the Ren Era on Deity then most likely for your settings it is too easy and Deity difficulty needs further adjustments to make it harder. But those adjustments should Not be meant for all levels of difficulty only for Deity.

Deity players Are the most vocal group in this Mod. But if the Mod was adjusted to suit just them all the new and lower level players would be squeezed out and would leave the mod because they just can't win. And this too has been an old old dilemma all the way back to RoM v0.80, Zappara's 1st BtS version of Rise of Mankind from which Strategyonly's NWA, then later on Afforess AND, and now C2C got most of their early basis.

I do agree that Deity obviously needs some tightening, but until other difficulty levels have chimed in with sufficient details they should be let alone. Grease the squeaky wheel sort of thing.

JosEPh

 

[teakbois]

I would bet you are the largest empire with the Tech lead and have built a majority of the Wonders too. All those factors skews your particular view.

The issue is, it is not difficult to do this. So the fact that you can do this fairly reliably is part of the problem.

This is a game that started on immortal but has been on deity since mid-ancient. here is the current tech situation:

Spoiler :

Not only am I the tech leader, not one single civ has a tech i don't have and the tech tree still has tons of branches at this stage. I am not a scientific leader, and I purposely only founded one religion (although it does have a nice science boost, Andeanism). Im not cheesing my science rate with multiple monasteries and religion wonders. I am a financial leader however, and that does have a pretty nice tech advantage.

Yes, I am the biggest tech. I have 27 cities, second techer has 18. jesse James now has more cities than me (29) and my guess is he has wiped out a few of the original civs. I was able to easily wipe my mini-continent clean with elephant rush and was able to expand rapidly because there currently is no balance against it (cities have all the happiness they could possibly want so the techs arent limiting, and the city maintenance costs just arent the detterence they used to be

Im actually running at 95% science, but that was after building 27 sewer systems. Those -10% maintenance, -10% crime buildings are quickly undoing that, and with the ability to build banks now Ill be rolling in it shortly

Deity players Are the most vocal group in this Mod. But if the Mod was adjusted to suit just them all the new and lower level players would be squeezed out and would leave the mod because they just can't win

The reason is because you have to handicap yourself to get a consistent challenge. Play on pangaea. Play on faster speeds. Play without certain traits. The ideal is to have difficulty settings for everyone. So the people that want an odds against them game can go deity, people looking for a fair but tough game can do Immortal, and people new to the mod can progress from Noble on up as they get better at the game.

And there is no way that the mod is going to get an ideal balance for all levels, but maybe a quick fix of reduced gpt and reduced science for the upper difficulties makes those high levels feel a bit more challenging without requiring a ton of work. Maybe it doesnt though.

Thats what this discussion is for.

 

[ls612]

Even if it is because of how large I am, the fact remains that my gold situation is way too easy for Deity. As I said, I'm +6000pt at 0% tax, and I should be at least -6000gpt at that rate (more like -10000). The reward I should get for forgoing half my research should be to break even!!!

Yes, but if it is because you are huge compared to the AI it means that the solution is to make the AI better at killing you, not to reduce gold across the board.

 

[Yudishtira]

I notice that the Jewelry Store is worth 4, but with multipliers it brings in 60 and 70+ in some cities. I don't see how you can ever balance a mod when 4 can mean 4 or 76 (+1800%). Does anyone have a reason why such modifiers should not be capped at around +300%?

 

[Faustmouse]

The reason for this is simply, that the "+1% with Silver" etc is not relating to to form the building only but for your whole city. For example, you have +1000 from you city (net income) and a modifier of +99%. So 1998 per turn. If you build a building with + 1 and +1% , then you have 1001 Net income and a modifier of 100%, so its 2002 instead of 1998. Now imagine that jewelry not only gives +1% with Silver but also with other so it can easly be 5-10% (not know how much actually from the top of my head).
So if it's +10% in total it adds +4 to the net, so 1004 and +10% for the modifier so 109% instead of 99%. Thus it raises your income from

1000 * 1,99 = 1990
to
1004 * 2,09 = 2098
-> 108 more !

The problem is buildings can only have +% for incomes gold:, , , ) from Bonus and not +flat. This only works for yields food:, , )

 

[teakbois]

Yes, but if it is because you are huge compared to the AI it means that the solution is to make the AI better at killing you, not to reduce gold across the board.

There used to be two things to overcome to build large empires: revolutions and maintenance. These things are both non factors now. I used to have to wait until my economy stabilized again to send out another tribe/settler. that is no longer the case. I can expand at will.

 

[Yudishtira]

The reason for this is simply, that the "+1% with Silver" etc is not relating to to form the building only but for your whole city. For example, you have +1000 from you city (net income) and a modifier of +99%. So 1998 per turn. If you build a building with + 1 and +1% , then you have 1001 Net income and a modifier of 100%, so its 2002 instead of 1998. Now imagine that jewelry not only gives +1% with Silver but also with other so it can easly be 5-10% (not know how much actually from the top of my head).
So if it's +10% in total it adds +4 to the net, so 1004 and +10% for the modifier so 109% instead of 99%. Thus it raises your income from

1000 * 1,99 = 1990
to
1004 * 2,09 = 2098
-> 108 more !

The problem is buildings can only have +% for incomes gold:, , , ) from Bonus and not +flat. This only works for yields food:, , )

Yeah I get it: maths is fun!

I would think it's a minority of buildings that should be bonusing city revenue as a whole. Stores and most other gold buildings ('private enterprise' ones...??) should only bonus themselves. That "can't be done"...at present. So someone please fix it so it can.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's not your ability to expand at will that is the core problem, but rather the AI's ability to expand at the same pace. It would seem that the Difficulty levels settings (% added to or taken away from the AI for bonus prod., research, etc., all needs adjusted for the upper tier Difficulty levels. ls612 has intimate knowledge of these interactions as he has adjusted them several times over the past 2-3 years. Maybe this should be the 1st step?

JosEPh

 

[teakbois]

It's not your ability to expand at will that is the core problem, but rather the AI's ability to expand at the same pace. It would seem that the Difficulty levels settings (% added to or taken away from the AI for bonus prod., research, etc., all needs adjusted for the upper tier Difficulty levels. ls612 has intimate knowledge of these interactions as he has adjusted them several times over the past 2-3 years. Maybe this should be the 1st step?

JosEPh

Being able to expand at will though is certainly an issue (in my opinion anyway). Maybe Im just better at the game, but it seems there used to be a pretty good balance on expansion - if you over exerted yourself your economy would crumble to the point where you would have research % near 0. A more careful expansion, where you had to strengthen your economy as you went along, was the way to go and the balance felt right.

Of course on the higher difficulty levels the AI had less of an issue and grew faster, and it made for better game play IMO.

 

[Faustmouse]

Yeah I get it: maths is fun!

I would think it's a minority of buildings that should be bonusing city revenue as a whole. Stores and most other gold buildings ('private enterprise' ones...??) should only bonus themselves. That "can't be done"...at present. So someone please fix it so it can.

Think about taxes. So yes, if you produce something and sell it the city gets gold from it (or money in reality). But I guess I get your point that only shops that actually sell items should give money from bonuses.

 

[strategyonly]

It's not your ability to expand at will that is the core problem, but rather the AI's ability to expand at the same pace. It would seem that the Difficulty levels settings (% added to or taken away from the AI for bonus prod., research, etc., all needs adjusted for the upper tier Difficulty levels. ls612 has intimate knowledge of these interactions as he has adjusted them several times over the past 2-3 years. Maybe this should be the 1st step?

JosEPh

I say for Marathon and Epic and below, turn the tech times completely around, longer in the beginning and shorter in the later games, because of the # of cities and other stuff to evaluate, thus making longer turn times, but this way they would be shorter, maybe???

 

[Yudishtira]

Think about taxes. So yes, if you produce something and sell it the city gets gold from it (or money in reality). But I guess I get your point that only shops that actually sell items should give money from bonuses.

I have to disagree. This isn't like taxes at all. Here we've got a building bringing in 4 for its owner, and 70 for the city? That would be a tax rate of 1750%. So it doesn't represent tax. It's some sort of Keynes-on-steroids multiplier effect. Bottom line is, it's wrong but it's always been done that way. I suggest it's time to revisit the question: "is it really impossible to do it better???"...

 

[Sparth]

Easy way?
Make him give +1% at at start and +1 per silver, gold, gems etc.

 

[Faustmouse]

Easy way?
I have to disagree. This isn't like taxes at all. Here we've got a building bringing in 4 for its owner, and 70 for the city? That would be a tax rate of 1750%. So it doesn't represent tax. It's some sort of Keynes-on-steroids multiplier effect. Bottom line is, it's wrong but it's always been done that way. I suggest it's time to revisit the question: "is it really impossible to do it better???"...

Ok I got you wrong. What I meant was: Producing buildings like factories should not get ANY since they don't sell their stuff.

And the Jewelry gives both, the +4 and +70 to the city rather than himself. And as it is now, the Jewelry sells A LOT more with Silver etc, therefore higher tax income. But I agree with you that it is way to much and very unrealistic. Even worse with Druglords mansion I think which has (or had) +20% from LSD, Drugs, Ecstasy, Meth...

Easy way?
Make him give +1% at at start and +1 per silver, gold, gems etc.

Yeah, if we COULD we'd give it +4 and +1 from Silver, Gold, Gems... but we can't have a plain + from Bonus as mentioned above. Therefore, if you want to increase or other incomes with a Bonus (Resource), you HAVE to have it %
I don't know how hard it would be to make a new tag that allows + 1 with Silver etc. but I'd really appreciate it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Being able to expand at will though is certainly an issue (in my opinion anyway). Maybe Im just better at the game, but it seems there used to be a pretty good balance on expansion - if you over exerted yourself your economy would crumble to the point where you would have research % near 0. A more careful expansion, where you had to strengthen your economy as you went along, was the way to go and the balance felt right.

Of course on the higher difficulty levels the AI had less of an issue and grew faster, and it made for better game play IMO.

This was true for sometime, but when the latest batch of post v32 buildings began to get added that began to be less of an uphill struggle. Still was for certain leader and civic combos but not like it was prior to the pre v33 SVN.

Prehistoric was pretty well balanced up to that point. But then revisions and additions came and here we are now discussing the lack of struggle on Deity level again.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Um... why do you guys believe it's impossible to use one of the most basic building tags we have - CommerceChanges? This should lead to a flat rate modifier of the indicated commerce rather than a % (which is indicated by the term 'Modifier' rather than 'Change'.)

% adjustments should represent investment capability adjustments for the city and the facilitation or impact on the economy city wide. + base changes should represent the taxation of the profits that building is bringing in. - base changes should represent the gold upkeep for the nation to pay - such as what is taking place on military and other publicly maintained buildings.

Yes... we could certainly thing things through more... wonders I think are one of the main sources of causing HUGE % modifiers - was meaningful when we had less of them but now we should perhaps pull them back a little (not too much or you could kill the profitability of corporations.)

I also think we may want to consider making all units a bit more expensive for nations to field. Try increasing the base cost per unit by +1 gold. Unfortunately, this would probably hit the AI harder than the player but it would be more rational for military spending. Increasing gold penalties for public buildings would help too. Particularly looking for ways to inject more -% modifiers rather than just - flat rate gold. Anything that scales to the size of the city/economy should really be based on a % factor - like perhaps road upkeep for example.