Diplomacy did it improve or dit it get worse?

[apocalypse105]

note: I am really bad at english grammar I am learning it so dont give me hard time of it..

First of all this video is not to bash civ 5 diplomacy as many did(like me) its a topic to discuss of diplomacy has improved or not has the denouncing system broken the diplomacy?
or was it allready broken?
Note: I am not talking about the tactical AI playing cities how to handle the combat just the diplomacy

So I watched some old lets plays when civilization 5 was first released or at least a few months old...

And I noticed that diplomacy is complete different no denouncings or wierd decleration of friendship only a pact of corporation together and pact of secrecy against someone. It thinx it made it easier to deal with diplomacy instead of the thousand denouncements and decleration of friendships but I just saw a few senario's

When you made a friendship pact of corporation you could actually end it by clicking the option i'm done working with you.. Something you can't do now..


The Ai will tel you also when they dont want to work with you any more like or pact of corporation has ended. Once augustus said: you're deeling with city state in my sphere of influence is unaceptable consider our pact of corporation ended ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm1FFUWvcRI&feature=channel_video_title
At the 6 minute

However these are just some senario's I heard and saw and I never played a hole game or watch a hole game I just heared and saw some senario's with this kind of diplomacy

So I was wondering How was diplomacy at the beginning of the game at the release? Was the AI olso verry agressive? Could you interact with the AI did those 2 pacts actualy meaned something ? Has something changed positif or negatif? What do you guys thinx ?

Discuss...

What are you oppinions about it I am really curious about ? Because I never played civ 5 vanilla.

Does anybody actualyl knows how you can play civ 5 vanilla?

I have the civ 5 game of the year edition with the 4 DLC's inca/spain, polynesia,babylon (and mongolia but everyone has them)

When I start playing the game I thinx it was allready up to date and was having the denounce system..

 

[Veneke]

I didn't play Civ 5 when it first came out, but as far as I'm aware there's no way to return to the Cooperation/Secrecy version or remove the Friendship/Denouncing system. At least, not until we 2K/Firaxis releases the core gameplay files.

MadDjinn wrote a very good analysis of Civ 5's diplomacy, which you can see here. That could help you understand why things are happening as they are.

 

[apocalypse105]

I didn't play Civ 5 when it first came out, but as far as I'm aware there's no way to return to the Cooperation/Secrecy version or remove the Friendship/Denouncing system. At least, not until we 2K/Firaxis releases the core gameplay files.

MadDjinn wrote a very good analysis of Civ 5's diplomacy, which you can see here. That could help you understand why things are happening as they are.

I know how diplomacy denouncing system works I am just curious how it was before that broken or not?

 

[Veneke]

Oh, sorry. Not sure if it was broken or not, but I know that one of the major complaints against it was that a lot of the information was hidden from the player. Arguably, that hasn't changed either. I'm sure someone who bought the game before the December patch can fill you in better than I.

 

[apocalypse105]

Oh, sorry. Not sure if it was broken or not, but I know that one of the major complaints against it was that a lot of the information was hidden from the player. Arguably, that hasn't changed either. I'm sure someone who bought the game before the December patch can fill you in better than I.

Yeah I know you couldn''t seem the modifiers but I stil dont know if the AI was so agressive as know and made friends with a lot of people but denounces a lot of people

 

[NotSure]

There weren't any "friends" in the release version. The AI was just as prone to declare war (based on flavor values) with one exception - the early rush. The early rush came in one of the more recent patches.

The biggest changes in diplomacy came as a result of players complaining that they didn't know why leaders greeted them rudely ("The blood thirsty one shows his face") and/or occasionally popped in to insult them. Now we can see AI attitudes degrade and know why they are degrading.

The game didn't get any harder because of diplomacy and crazy AI. The AI was just as crazy when it was released (Monty killed one of my scouts and was on another continent, then he said something like "Why don't you do something about it?"). They made it harder by stripping the player of production, gold, and specialists and bumping up AI bonuses. The only difference in diplomacy is that now we get to read why the AI is loosing their minds.

 

[NotSure]

Oh, I forgot the Pacts of Secrecy/Cooperation. Those were axed because players didn't know what purpose they served and often wound up with both Pacts of Secrecy and Pacts of Cooperation against/with every AI on the map. They replaced them with the DoF's and denouncements because they're easier to understand.

 

[nokmirt]

I think its worse than ever.

For declaring war on Hanoi a CS early in my current game. I was labeled a warmonger. I never even declared war against an AI civ. Korea declared war on me, and Siam also backstabbed me.

Now I am in 1882 AD. Somewhere over 300 turns. Anyway, in 1872 I was DOWed on by Arabia, Japan (close neighbor)(Who I am massacring at the moment.), Mongolia(close neighbor)(Smashing them good as well, their Keshik's were a joke.), England, Babylon (My valued trading partner throughout the game. I wish I could swear!), Egypt(He never liked me and the feelings were mutual.), Ottomans (1 city and 20,298 soldiers, good luck my friend!), Germany (The biggest bully on the block with 18 cities and 240,092 soldiers.), Songai (A complete jerk!), Hiawatha (Another tough guy that feels lucky!), and last but not least, my backstabbing friend and close neighbor SIAM!

The thing is that I am playing on a giant earth map, so at the moment my close neighbors are the only direct threats to my empire. None of those three are very strong. What I would like to know is if your labeled a so-called warmonger, like I am (I am playing as China), will my relations get better with these other civs at some point? My only friend is Russia and they have been denouncing her as well. However, even Catherine sees me as a warmonger. I do not understand how, I got that label. I did denounce people here and there, maybe thats why. Usually they were counter denouncements.

The thing is its too late to worry about that now. Right now I am in a huge war. Losing money drastically and my happiness is -6. Is there a way out of this mess, evidently I've made for myself? What should I do? Hopefully someone reads this.

I could add screenshots, let me know. I can use paint.net to convert TGA files. Then I just add them to my photobucket.

 

[aatami]

In my oppinion, it's quite good now. You just need to think of it as more humane and treat it logically.

 

[nokmirt]

In my oppinion, it's quite good now. You just need to think of it as more humane and treat it logically.

Those AI's wanting my head on a pike is more humane! Utterly laughable!

 

[Selous]

pretty much, once u start a war (with anyone) be prepared to fight for the rest of the game

i liked the idea of the secrecy pacts, but they didnt seem to do anything ... might be nice to see a return along side some of the other diplomacy options

 

[nokmirt]

pretty much, once u start a war (with anyone) be prepared to fight for the rest of the game

i liked the idea of the secrecy pacts, but they didnt seem to do anything ... might be nice to see a return along side some of the other diplomacy options

They shouldn't have taken those out. After that was done the AI became completely unforgiving. Besides pacts of secrecy made the game more interesting, there was some intrigue involved. Fighting in my current game really should be common place, because the only way to win is through domination. There is also no time limit. What I am worried about is how I am going to attain enough happiness, to actually be able to win. You cannot raze capitals, right? I am going to have to keep some important cities for my line of march from place to place.

My first priority is to defend against Japan with my superior naval forces and protect the Korean peninsula, along with the east coast of China. Secondly defend against Mongolia in the North. The good thing is that Mongolia just declared war on Russia, my only friend. Babylon is sneaking troops past Almaty my allied CS, who blocks the passage into Northern Asia, from west to east. So, I am repositioning some of my northern army to give them a surprise.

In the south, Siam has broken through my limited defenses. I am now trying to get more units there to shore things up. When the front is stabilized and I bring more forces to bear, he will be annihilated, every city razed. I'll just keep his capital, because I have no choice. After that I will take out Japan, then hopefully things will be quiet in the Pacific for a bit, while I deal with Mongolia and Babylon. If I can, I want to gift both Almaty and Kuala Lampur a unit or two. Also, I may work on making Lhasa an ally as well. Almaty is militaristic and helps me with units. The first two I'll gift to him, if I can't help him sooner. In any case the situation is no picnic, it is a war on three fronts. Fighting a land war in Asia is not good strategy, so they say. I will have to prove that anaolgy wrong! Or perish altogether!

 

[apocalypse105]

Those AI's wanting my head on a pike is more humane! Utterly laughable!

Its funny that you say that Becuase its true if you dont like this mechanic I advice the mod civilization Nights


It removes the warmonger hit and it now works with number diplomacy positif and negatif modifiers (and close borders are close borders not verry far away)
as result the AI sometimes declares on me but that because I am close to them..

I olso had a lot of friends even when I declared 2 times

Diplomacy actually works how difficult is it to fix it firaxis if the community can do it?

 

[nokmirt]

Its funny that you say that Becuase its true if you dont like this mechanic I advice the mod civilization Nights


It removes the warmonger hit and it now works with number diplomacy positif and negatif modifiers (and close borders are close borders not verry far away)
as result the AI sometimes declares on me but that because I am close to them..

I olso had a lot of friends even when I declared 2 times

Diplomacy actually works how difficult is it to fix it firaxis if the community can do it?

Perhaps your right. I will have to try that mod. I don't mind having enemies in the game, but even the bad guys have some allies.

 

[apocalypse105]

Perhaps your right. I will have to try that mod. I don't mind having enemies in the game, but even the bad guys have some allies.

The mod change the game competly even the happiness and you need to get use to it.

anyhow I only played it on small maps to test it out and only a few turns (until medieval era)

So I dont know if the AI stills declares war on everybody and chain denounces everybody...

But on small maps where usally everyone goes crazy I actually had good relations with my neigbhour kamehamea and I even built a city right next to him...

 

[aatami]

"civilization Nights"
"it now works with number diplomacy positif and negatif modifiers"

What? Even unmodded V has visible positive and negative diplo modifiers nowaday...

Those AI's wanting my head on a pike is more humane! Utterly laughable!

The thing is, you where a warmonger. The AI doesn't like city states being overrun (or even attacked).

 

[NotSure]

What? Even unmodded V has visible positive and negative diplo modifiers nowaday...

Unmodded CiV does have positive modifiers, but they are far outweighed by the negative ones. All I have to do is open one of any of my saves, pull up the world diplomacy screen and the evidence is right there - 3 to 1 negative modifiers with every civ on the map, everyone is at war (some are at war with multiple civs). The problem may be that a less than hyper-competitive AI would make the game too easy or indescribably boring. "Competitive AI" is huge part of the design, right?

The thing is, you where a warmonger. The AI doesn't like city states being overrun (or even attacked).

Yes, there is no better way to ruin diplomacy for the rest of the game than attacking a city state.

 

[nokmirt]

What? Even unmodded V has visible positive and negative diplo modifiers nowaday...

The thing is, you where a warmonger. The AI doesn't like city states being overrun (or even attacked).

Yes I see, but its ok for the AI to attack and take over city states. Isn't that a bit hypocritical, to do yourself what you hate? We can do it, but don't you dare do it. To me thats makes every fiber in my American soul cringe! Man that makes me mad!

I was not a warmonger! But I am one now and they are going to pay!

The AI Siam attacked the city state of Kuala Lampur, and no other civs got mad at him. So this do not attack a city stae makes not sense. This is undeniable proof the AI diplomacy is broken. Yesterday before I stopped playing Babylon attacked Almaty, but there certainly was no WORLDWIDE denouncements against him! It should be no different when the human does it, fair is fair. In this game it is you against the world. It is completely ridiculous.

Now, some of you mentioned positve negative modifiers for CiV and that the negatives far outweighed the positives. Is there any way to change these modifiers, to tone down this utter unforgiveness of the AI?

 

[NotSure]

Embrace the chaos. No, seriously, I'm holding out for some good mods when they release the code. But, as it is now, the game itself ("building a civilization to stand the test of time") isn't designed to be the challenge. The AI is designed to be the challenge. So, if you neutered the AI, without making victory conditions (outside of domination) a challenge, you'd have one boring game on your hands, right? I think some great modder will have to change a lot of the design to make this work.

 

[apocalypse105]

Embrace the chaos. No, seriously, I'm holding out for some good mods when they release the code. But, as it is now, the game itself ("building a civilization to stand the test of time") isn't designed to be the challenge. The AI is designed to be the challenge. So, if you neutered the AI, without making victory conditions (outside of domination) a challenge, you'd have one boring game on your hands, right? I think some great modder will have to change a lot of the design to make this work.

Well yesterday I was playing the mod civilization nights and I got my ass kicked by hiawata And I lost on king difficulty So the difficulty is greatly improved