Discreet Oceans and Ocean Naming

[primem0ver]

I recently announced my return and explained my plan to continue the GeoRealism engine. This announcement explained my need to generate currents on the map before proceeding with the actual climate simulator.

In order to do this, I am needing to divide up bodies of water (at least large ones), so that I can more accurately construct gyres and the currents that run between them. It may be necessary to even isolate smaller bodies of water later.

This is the next step I am beginning in this algorithm that I will start this evening. I have already completed...

1. The basic "GeoRealism testing lab" that provides me an GUI to test the GeoRealism engine on exported WorldBuilder maps.
2. The first algorithm step of identifying major west-east current lanes across the globe and identifying the base temperature range.

One interesting side effect is that we should be able to isolate major sections of the global water zone into discreet (similar to separate) oceans and possibly even major bays. This may lead to new possibilities. I have created this thread to discuss these possibilities, including the obvious first one: we could now add signs that name oceans. Let me hear your thoughts.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Adding signs is not a problem, we already have that available for landmarks.

The next problem is how do we add currents and temperature in game without having to change all the buildings and units. I think that it may be possible using the multiple features mod but I am not 100% sure. For example we could have "empty" graphics or perhaps minimal graphics for current direction and water temperature. Since these don't have anything in them it should not affect the features that do.

We could change the coast/ocean terrain type based on temperature also. As long as we stick with the ones we have.

 

[Yudishtira]

Adding signs is not a problem, we already have that available for landmarks.

The next problem is how do we add currents and temperature in game without having to change all the buildings and units. I think that it may be possible using the multiple features mod but I am not 100% sure. For example we could have "empty" graphics or perhaps minimal graphics for current direction and water temperature. Since these don't have anything in them it should not affect the features that do.

We could change the coast/ocean terrain type based on temperature also. As long as we stick with the ones we have.

(If C2C was a meteorological simulation not a game...) they'd be properties wouldn't they?
- current direction
- speed of current
- water temp

That way they could vary like El Nino/La Nina, and also evolve over time.

 

[Faustmouse]

Those currenty could affect / enable later "green" powerplants like an Ocean Current Power Plant.

 

[primem0ver]

In regard to these questions...

Adding signs is not a problem, we already have that available for landmarks.

The next problem is how do we add currents and temperature in game without having to change all the buildings and units. I think that it may be possible using the multiple features mod but I am not 100% sure. For example we could have "empty" graphics or perhaps minimal graphics for current direction and water temperature. Since these don't have anything in them it should not affect the features that do.

We could change the coast/ocean terrain type based on temperature also. As long as we stick with the ones we have.

Currents are not a feature. They are not meant to be visible on the screen. It may be possible to add them in one of the info views for the map but that would only be possible if I find a reason to keep them as part of the geodata that will be attached to each plot during the actual game (as opposed to before...when a more detailed structure will be attached).

They WILL directly affect both underwater and land climates (especially along the coast) so you will be able to see there affects indirectly. You will also be able to see where the warm water and cold water exists in the climate view if I am able to add that view option to the map view choices.

(If C2C was a meteorological simulation not a game...) they'd be properties wouldn't they?
- current direction
- speed of current
- water temp

That way they could vary like El Nino/La Nina, and also evolve over time.

The GeoRealism engine will be a meteorological simulation, at least on the global scale. I don't have a need for speed of current. Plus... that would be extremely difficult to calculate. We only need direction and water temperature. El/Nino won't be part of the simulation since it happens on a scale that will not be considered in the simulation. The simulation is only done once until we add the geology simulation. Then we will need to do it once every hundred thousand years or so in the geology simulation to help determine placement of resources.

Those currenty could affect / enable later "green" powerplants like an Ocean Current Power Plant.

Possibly... but only if I keep that data for the game. Right now I am not planning on doing that. We can discuss that later.

Regarding the topic...
Right now I am talking more about things that are possible with isolating separate oceans such as improving the AI. Another example (besides naming oceans) is the possibility of building canals.

I toyed with this idea back when I was developing the Genetic Era Mod. I realized that in order to recommend places for building a canal (you know... the blue highlight that suggests good places for one), I would need to distinguish between separate oceans because building a canal to access the same ocean (such as on a peninsula) would usually be a waste.

Unfortunately in the vanilla bts version, this is impossible because the any ocean that is connected to another ocean is part of the same area. Separation of oceans in an identifiable way would make canals a real possibly.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Regarding the topic...
Right now I am talking more about things that are possible with isolating separate oceans such as improving the AI.

As far as I know there is noting that does that at the moment. Land does have a region so it may be possible to use the same variable with sea plots as long as it does not currently give all sea plots the same region.

 

[primem0ver]

As far as I know there is noting that does that at the moment. Land does have a region so it may be possible to use the same variable with sea plots as long as it does not currently give all sea plots the same region.

Yes. If not, I can always add a variable. But I don't think it will be necessary. Meanwhile... what do people think of canals? Has anyone ever considered these? Kind of like the opposite of sea tunnels and available at a much earlier tech. Work was begun on the Panama canal in 1881 and it was finished in 1914. It could provide some significant strategic advantages to any country who built one.

If anyone has any other ideas that having the world ocean split into geographic regions would help make possible, thats the purpose of this this thread.

 

[JamesBC]

Yes. If not, I can always add a variable. But I don't think it will be necessary. Meanwhile... what do people think of canals? Has anyone ever considered these? Kind of like the opposite of sea tunnels and available at a much earlier tech. Work was begun on the Panama canal in 1881 and it was finished in 1914. It could provide some significant strategic advantages to any country who built one.

If anyone has any other ideas that having the world ocean split into geographic regions would help make possible, thats the purpose of this this thread.

I think Canals would be a very good idea. We can make them an "improvement: similiar to roads in that you have to build them across the land and they activate when two Coast tiles are connected. We can even make Canals 2 Tiles of Width.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes... canals are something I've seen requested often - forts usually fill the bill but with super forts being merged in I understand it's limited our ability to do this quite the same. And yeah, have been wanting official Canals for a while now.

Another possible benefit might be in AI work - I can see ai's being compelled to make sure they have a share of their naval strength distributed out in identified ocean regions.

Another possible benefit might be in Animal Spawning. We could create Animal spawn regions out of oceans, animal ecosystem sets, and randomly assign spawn ecosystems (biomes) to particular oceans to give some more variation.

The same line of thinking would work well in regards to the Currents information - it could be somehow useful in establishing likely 'Bonus' plots.

Currents could also have movement modifier effects if they were included in the plot data - particularly for hand rowed ships that would have a hard time moving against them but would get a significant tactical boost moving with them.

 

[primem0ver]

Another possible benefit might be in Animal Spawning. We could create Animal spawn regions out of oceans, animal ecosystem sets, and randomly assign spawn ecosystems (biomes) to particular oceans to give some more variation.

The same line of thinking would work well in regards to the Currents information - it could be somehow useful in establishing likely 'Bonus' plots.

True. This is exactly why I thought it would be good not exclude the oceans when we are talking about climate. The difference is that climate in the oceans is determined by water temperature. (Tropical reefs only being where really warm currents are for example). As a result, in the climate file I have 6 underwater climates defined.

Currents could also have movement modifier effects if they were included in the plot data - particularly for hand rowed ships that would have a hard time moving against them but would get a significant tactical boost moving with them.

Cool! Now this is why I started this thread. That is one I hadn't thought of. It might be tricky to implement but not impossible if people wanted it.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

Canals might work well with the sail in rivers mod

 

[primem0ver]

I should have the ocean separation algorithm done soon. I found a nice approach yesterday and am already about a third done. (No more than a week and probably a lot sooner). I will post the results when it is finished.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Very cool!

 

[DRJ]

Looks like christmas will be early this year! Really looking forward to testplay your project Keep up the good work!

 

[AIAndy]

Oceans and lakes that are completely disconnected have a separate area (areas are not land only). But I guess that is not that useful here as a single connecting water tile combines it into one area so no separation of bays or larger subareas of the world ocean (like pacific and atlantic).

 

[primem0ver]

Oceans and lakes that are completely disconnected have a separate area (areas are not land only). But I guess that is not that useful here as a single connecting water tile combines it into one area so no separation of bays or larger subareas of the world ocean (like pacific and atlantic).

Yes, you are right. Inland oceans will only be considered oceans if they are large enough. Otherwise they will be lakes. The code will be robust enough to recongnize different size levels and identify them accordingly. I am hopeful that the code will be able to recognize the following (as enumerated in the C# code):

public enum WaterAreaType { NotApplicable, Ocean, Sea, Gulf, Straight, Lake }

NotApplicable means land or ice.
The only unknown is Gulf. I am not sure if that will be separately identifiable or not. But it is likely.

 

[rightfuture]

I'm a big fan of getting the navigable and strategic rivers mods into C2C.

I think is really great that you are back PrimeMover, and willing to engage and challenge us into helping you get things done. Solving canals, bridges, tunnels, and other bridge spots will really open up strategic play and possibilities. I am glad to participate in figuring these things out if I can. Maniac, the creator of the great Alpha Centauri Civ IV mod -Planetfall also offered any help he could give to working with his mod, and it contains some useful underwater city insight. Opening up some discussion would probably payoff a lot.

On another note: Can you upload the last version of the Genetic mod so we can all look at it, as you offered? It would teach me a little about mod merging, and probably open up the underwater cities discussion a bit more.

 

[AIAndy]

Yes, you are right. Inland oceans will only be considered oceans if they are large enough. Otherwise they will be lakes. The code will be robust enough to recongnize different size levels and identify them accordingly. I am hopeful that the code will be able to recognize the following (as enumerated in the C# code):

public enum WaterAreaType { NotApplicable, Ocean, Sea, Gulf, Straight, Lake }

NotApplicable means land or ice.
The only unknown is Gulf. I am not sure if that will be separately identifiable or not. But it is likely.

The same kind of algorithm might also be useful for splitting up the land (which has similar features with different names).

 

[primem0ver]

The same kind of algorithm might also be useful for splitting up the land (which has similar features with different names).

Technically the land is already split into areas. I am able to reproduce those areas in my testing environment pretty easily and areas keep track of the number of plots that exist in them. So yes. Using that info, I should be able to segregate islands, large islands, small continents, large continents, and super-continents lol.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Gulf has the equivalent Peninsula. Knowing that a peninsula is blocked/isolated by mountains at the end would be useful in the initial starting place calculations. A nation which only has access to an isolated peninsula of 5 or fewer plots is at a big disadvantage.