Discussion about a quirk of alliances

[MutilationWave]

In my last game, I had three civs constantly asking for alliances that I declined because I did not want involved in their multiple wars. After one of them declared peace, the relationship was back up to 90 and I proposed alliance, they declined. I ate the penalty and moved on, but it got me curious.

I did some testing over the next 30 turns intermittently. Anyone who I declined an alliance with previously would refuse an alliance if I offered it at 90 relationship. I even tried sending endeavors, increased trade, no dice. I tried waiting for those actions to complete, and they would still decline alliance.

The weird thing is a couple of them later requested alliance again.

Does anyone have any insight into this? If you decline alliance with a leader will they forever decline your alliances for the rest of the age, no matter what you do?

 

[CivKirk64]

Alliances seem to be either broken or never work out as intended. Far more often than not, a request pops up and immediately afterward I'm at war, without realizing.

Also, I'm not sure if this is a clarity thing, but it seems you will be pulled into war even if your Ally is the aggressor.

I think we need to bring back multiple layers of alliance.

Non-aggression pact (We have this now if you are throwing units near them, but would be nice to be able to request it without this)
Economic/Diplomatic Alliance (unlocking more powerful and/or buffing the endeavors)
Defensive treaty (You will be brought into war if the other party is the target)
Full military block, all those involved will act as one, even as the aggressor.

Although it would be nice if your ally would have a conference "Hey we are going to war, would that be cool? You can spend influence to say, Naw Dog, or 'Give me 10 turns to get ready', or 'Please wait to see if they declare on us'.

I too agree , it seems unclear when they will be willing to accept an alliance, if there is a cooldown because of some action.

Over all diplomacy has a nice foundation, but its missing things.
It would be nice to be able to spend gold on certain things (Buying a unit from them, Buying Production from them or toward their own buildings)
Trading towns or liberating IPs feels like a must too. It would be nice if maybe low happiness settlements showed up , and you could negotiate them to become part of your empire, or transferred back to original owners.

 

[stealth_nsk]

In my last game, I had three civs constantly asking for alliances that I declined because I did not want involved in their multiple wars. After one of them declared peace, the relationship was back up to 90 and I proposed alliance, they declined. I ate the penalty and moved on, but it got me curious.

I did some testing over the next 30 turns intermittently. Anyone who I declined an alliance with previously would refuse an alliance if I offered it at 90 relationship. I even tried sending endeavors, increased trade, no dice. I tried waiting for those actions to complete, and they would still decline alliance.

The weird thing is a couple of them later requested alliance again.

Does anyone have any insight into this? If you decline alliance with a leader will they forever decline your alliances for the rest of the age, no matter what you do?

As I understand, the alliance is more than just relations. If AI just went into war, or plans to, AI is more likely to join or offer alliance even if relations are lower. And the other way around, if AI is not at war and doesn't want to, it requires higher relations for them to agree to alliance or offer it, especially if you're already at war they don't want to go into.

 

[MutilationWave]

In my tests I was never at war when requesting alliance, and relationship would have been well into the 100s if it wasn't capped at 90. But all alliances were refused with civs that I had formally formerly declined alliance with.

 

[stealth_nsk]

In my tests I was never at war when requesting alliance, and relationship would have been well into the 100s if it wasn't capped at 90. But all alliances were refused with civs that I had formally declined alliance with.

I didn't test formally declining alliance, as I understand it adds some cooldown, which could potentially be bugged?

I usually just accept any alliance offers they throw at me and when they appear at war, I decide that to do (usually nothing, breaking the alliance). Breaking alliance clearly doesn't prevent renewing alliances from my side.

 

[MutilationWave]

Meant to write formerly instead of formally there.

I did not know you could accept the alliance then immediately break it. This will be my strategy from now on, thanks!

 

[UWHabs]

I think accepting an alliance and then breaking it to avoid going to war technically has less penalty than declining the alliance, but I haven't run the numbers yet (I just saw that mentioned somewhere).

Would love a few more options around alliances, for sure. Although my last couple games I have definitely paid closer attention to when to join an alliance or not, and trying to figure out the knot of messes with that. Even had one spot where I knew if I didn't join in one alliance and let everyone else beat each other up, once the initial string of war declarations is done, I can safely figure out how to make sure when I join my other ally doesn't accidentally get turned against me for some weird chain of alliances reason.

 

[MutilationWave]

The mod Global Relations Panel is great for untangling the relationship knots. You can bring it up during the alliance proposal then decide if you want to make the alliance.

Agreed on alliance options. Defensive pact, non-aggression pact, economic versus military alliance, etc.

As I said to stealth, I'll be taking the alliance then breaking it going forward.

 

[stealth_nsk]

What I like about alliance options is that they are designed to work both in SP and MP and mostly do it. The only thing which is not well thought of is the alliance rejection option, as discussed, but it doesn't break anything.

Other diplomatic options need to be added really carefully. For example, defensive pact could range from useless (if doesn't force joining war) to too dangerous to actually use (if it does).

And for the rest - things like economic alliance are actually in game already in form of endeavors. So do non-aggression pacts, although I have no idea how to trigger them, but I've seen them offered by AI.

 

[MutilationWave]

You can trigger non aggression pact by amassing forces near the border of a civ you aren't at war with. I was just saying it would be nice to have as an option without that requirement.

 

[CivKirk64]

You can trigger non aggression pact by amassing forces near the border of a civ you aren't at war with. I was just saying it would be nice to have as an option without that requirement.

This is what I had said earlier.
I think it is the Military Denouncement . in theory I guess we can trigger them then? does the AI ever support it? Or do they just get mad you got mad at them?

 

[stealth_nsk]

You can trigger non aggression pact by amassing forces near the border of a civ you aren't at war with. I was just saying it would be nice to have as an option without that requirement.

That's military denounce and you could do it too. Non-aggression pact is a separate thing and it exists too.

 

[MutilationWave]

Ah, my bad. I don't think I've seen non-aggression pact then.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Ah, my bad. I don't think I've seen non-aggression pact then.

It's weird, because you can't initiate them, and I don't remember at which patch I've seen them last, but there are 3 options - decline, accept and support. I believe it gives strong war support penalties if you initiate war while under non-aggression pact, but I believe it's something unfinished...

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

In my observation, civs tend to request alliances either when they are weak or if they are at war or about to declare war. It seems to be the Civ 7 method of asking you to join their war, either existing or anticipated, on their side.

 

[stealth_nsk]

In my observation, civs tend to request alliances either when they are weak or if they are at war or about to declare war. It seems to be the Civ 7 method of asking you to join their war, either existing or anticipated, on their side.

I often have peaceful alliances with high enough relations - sometimes I initiate them, often AI does this. And yes, sometimes it's due to weakness of the AI, but again, not always.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I often have peaceful alliances with high enough relations - sometimes I initiate them, often AI does this. And yes, sometimes it's due to weakness of the AI, but again, not always.

I have to, but they seem to be because that civ is militarily weak. The AI seem to do it as an insurance policy against being attacked. It doesn't always happen, of course.

Outside of open borders, a few leader trait bonuses, and a few civics (and Silla and Himiko QoW), there's not much reason to accept alliances at this point. I hope more incentives are added in the future.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I have to, but they seem to be because that civ is militarily weak. The AI seem to do it as an insurance policy against being attacked. It doesn't always happen, of course.

Outside of open borders, a few leader trait bonuses, and a few civics (and Silla and Himiko QoW), there's not much reason to accept alliances at this point. I hope more incentives are added in the future.

Well, alliances provide cheaper treaties and endeavors. And the last patch added quite important thing to alliances - privateers can't attack and be attacked by allied forces.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Well, alliances provide cheaper treaties and endeavors. And the last patch added quite important thing to alliances - privateers can't attack and be attacked by allied forces.

I forget about endeavors, to be honest. I save my Influence for befirending independent peoples at first. And by the time that is done, I've snowballed enough that I don't need endeavors.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I forget about endeavors, to be honest. I save my Influence for befirending independent peoples at first. And by the time that is done, I've snowballed enough that I don't need endeavors.

Usually the same to me, but additional trade routes are pretty handy.