Discussion about Babylon

[Manol0]

As you can see in the pic Babylon having Field Cannons in 325 AD with 48 science. Babylon in current state is game breaking in terms of balance.

 

[Kotofei]

And it's TOTALLY AWESOME!

It's supposed to be fun, not balanced. A month ago y'all were whining about Gran Colombia. Apparently everyone got over it.

 

[Manol0]

And it's TOTALLY AWESOME!

It's supposed to be fun, not balanced. A month ago y'all were whining about Gran Colombia. Apparently everyone got over it.

This is clearly cheat. If you can have fun while you ve been cheated its your business....but generally normal people dont enjoy being cheated you know...

 

[Stringer1313]

Agreed. We don't want balance, we want asymmetry Then again I don't play MP

 

[Evie]

Cheated my left foot.

They are playing the civ exactly as designed. No cheating, no bug. That's intended gameplay.

And you haven't even demonstrated that this "cheating" actually created a no-win situation for you. You're just complaining that one civ enjoys an advantage over yours right now that they are supposed to have by design, without looking at what disadvantages they may have, or anything of the sort.

 

[Mahi]

Babylon is great fun to play with but it's a bit of a pain to have him as an AI neighbor.
I haven't had a chance to play against him as a neighbor yet but I already agreed with myself from the beginning, that I would disable him if he was too unbalanced to play against when going for domination.
You can still cheese Babylon's friendship as any other AI, which should prevent him from attacking you, just as Gilgamesh really. Ever had Gilgamesh as a neighbor, where you didn't befriend him from the beginning? You can talk about an unbalanced early war right there.
Babylon feels mostly as a character created for the human player, not really as an opponent - which is totally fine by me.

I haven't seen Babylon as a SV contender. As an AI he only acts as a roadblock for a DV.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I don't want EXACT balance, but I do think Babylon is over the line. It makes me not want to play them (or some other extremely-easy-to-win civs like Korea or Russia) becuase it's just too easy.

 

[bengalryan9]

I think Babylon is a lot harder to play then some people want to admit. I'm not denying that the very best players who have mastered every system in the game can get some ridiculous results with them... but I don't think the civ was really designed with those players in mind, either.

For most players I think keeping ahead in science as the game progresses becomes pretty tricky. Some Eurekas are hard to achieve and not likely to be accomplished by the average player, and many Eurekas only get harder as the eras progess. So yeah, Babylon will probably jump out to a huge lead early on but staying there as the game continues is a whole different can of worms... one most players will have their hands full with, IMO.

 

[cain3456]

In my last game as Persia, Babylon was technologically backward most of the game. So no, Babylon is not broken at all.

 

[Enfant_Sauvage]

Babylon is fun but not that good for science victories for example. -50% to science output is breaking the late game. But with a good build order and tech order you can have powerful units earlier. For casual games Babylon seem to be OP, but for try-hard games Babylon is not that good. Babylon is ... meh fun but not efficient at all. It is more a troll civ than a good civ.

 

[Leucarum]

Babylon is definitely a skill-tester and more so than any other civ, newer players will find it easy to box themselves into a trap - normally "researching" units, before they have some precursors they can upgrate them from...

But the upside from a player playing them well seems to me to be a lot bigger than previous upsides have been. There are so many variants of units you can get ahead of time, often multiple times per game that it's silly.

And I think the challenge can be overrated. The babylon gameplay loop isn't that complex... It's mostly about planning ahead.

 

[bengalryan9]

And I think the challenge can be overrated. The babylon gameplay loop isn't that complex... It's mostly about planning ahead.

You can only plan for so much, though. Many Eurekas rely heavily on getting a favorable map - you need strategic resources nearby, you need mountains, you need coast, you need enemy units nearby that you can kill, and so on. While teching fast early on is nice it also means you don't have as much time to hit those mid game eurekas before you get there, and then all the sudden you're looking at a bunch of techs that you need to hard research. And then even if you manage to stay on top in science you reach the later ages where some eurekas are almost impossible (Kill a fighter? How do I do that when the AI isn't building any?) or can only be reached through great scientists or spies... and your spies won't be doing much to help there if you're in the tech lead.

So sure, if the map generator blesses you with a great map and you are an elite level city planner who knows exactly what to build, where to build it, and when to build them I'm sure they're easy, but for a lot of us I think they're more tricky than people realize. I still won my deity game as them but I'm not going to pretend it was any easier than it would of been playing any other civ. Granted, I was on a small continent by myself with no strategic resources, low production, and only room for like 5 or 6 cities IIRC but it can really be tough sledding in some games.

 

[Futumch]

The couple of games I have played as Babylon, I have found that my research became really patchy as the game progressed. What I mean is I was having to scroll left to research old tech that I'd skipped with eurekas. It was interesting and I think next time I play them it'll be with that Tech Shuffle mode on.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

It's T129 Standard Speed.

Well, usually a blank Civ of human player in a PVE game, gets field cannon around T115-120, a civ with some sorts of bonus get it at around T105-110 on standard speed.

Yes Babylon is definitely imbalanced, you may start Pike & Shot rush as early as T60. But T129 field cannon is just normal.

For AI, I once saw Zulu has 111 city defense before 1AD. AI science goes another way. It is either very quickly or very slowly.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Gilgamesh's science output is literally 5 times yours, I literally have never seen an AI this far ahead even on Deity. Even Babylon has more science per turn than you and they have a 50% penalty. Whichever difficulty this is, you need to dial it down a couple notches. If you get crushed this hard by the same AIs that have been the target of ridicule for 4 years, I don't think the problem is whether Babylon is in your game or not.

 

[greenOak]

Gilgamesh's science output is literally 5 times yours, I literally have never seen an AI this far ahead even on Deity. Even Babylon has more science per turn than you and they have a 50% penalty. Whichever difficulty this is, you need to dial it down a couple notches. If you get crushed this hard by the same AIs that have been the target of ridicule for 4 years, I don't think the problem is whether Babylon is in your game or not.

~200 science by this time in the game is pretty typical of the good AI techers on deity. Even so, such a gap far from insurmountable.

Also, I've seen deity AI Korea field Hwacha's by turn 100, so the possibility of the AI having turn 130 field cannons was already in the game. Korea AI having turn 100 hwacha's isn't really a big deal in terms of winning the game. You can still fight defensive wars against them (or better yet just befriend Korea), and having to delay an offensive war until you get better units is a mere speed-bump. Turn 130 field cannons pose far less of a threat/problem.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I think Babylon is a lot harder to play then some people want to admit. I'm not denying that the very best players who have mastered every system in the game can get some ridiculous results with them... but I don't think the civ was really designed with those players in mind, either.

For most players I think keeping ahead in science as the game progresses becomes pretty tricky. Some Eurekas are hard to achieve and not likely to be accomplished by the average player, and many Eurekas only get harder as the eras progess. So yeah, Babylon will probably jump out to a huge lead early on but staying there as the game continues is a whole different can of worms... one most players will have their hands full with, IMO.

You could be correct about the average player I suppose.
Personally, I've played Babylon about 20 games now.
Never have a problem getting the Science Lead and keeping it with this Civ.
I find that I get the lead much faster with this Civ compared to any other Civ.
It also depends if you are playing on SS and Hero Mode.
The whole thing is kind of silly.
I can't believe you wouldn't admit that Babylon is a Top Tier Civ?
It's not very difficult to get this Civ Rolling.
I don't even get into the 3 mine Strategy but even Peacemongers find Babylon OP.

 

[KayAU]

I'm not that concerned about balance, but Babylon is too wacky even for my liking, and their gimmicky play style is not enjoyable for me. As I mentioned on the First Look thread, I unlocked The Wheel and Rifling on the same turn in the one partial game I played with them. I think the bonus/malus civs are generally very interesting and fun to play, but Babylon just seems off.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

My main issue with Babylon is how they mess up barbarians, city states and eras. Babylon can unlock techs which greenlights barbarians (and city states I think?) to use them. That means potentially advanced barbarians showing up anywhere. They also quicken the pace of Eras by dragging up the the median tech level its more noticable on smaller worlds where Babylon has more impact on the median tech level.

I think the main difference between Gran Colombia and Babylon is how they affect the game as an AI. I never saw AI GC dominate a game or generally behave any differently from the other AI's, they are powerful in the hands of a human but that goes for a lot of civs. AI Babylon may not be actually any good but his mechanics means they can influence the game in strange ways by upgrading the power of barbarians and city states and speeding era progression making golden ages more difficult.

Personally I dont want Babylon nerfed, lots of people love how they play and are finding it refreshing which is great. What I would like is a 'Civ selection' for advanced settings so I can remove Babylon as a possible AI player but can also be used for leaders you're fed up of seeing (Or you're sick of their music theme). It could also be used to ensure you only get strong naval civs on an archipelago world, or strong domination players in a war focused game.

 

[gcampono]

I recently started my fist game as Babylong and it was not that much easier than other civs at least in the beginning (I'm a decent but not very good player).

Maybe it's related to the map (I had no super tiles and no horses nearby) so I did not have a fast start, but then I easily got eurekas for crossbows and even much later (not even planning that) for modern armors to start things rolling. I won at T220 (6 players AI pangea map standard speed).

What I really wanted to say is that I got better results with Byzantium, Gaul and Kupe.

I still find that in the hands of a better player and a better map it can be really OP, but it's quite fun to play.

Of course in multiplayer it's autoban