Dissappointed with Civ IV

cfeyyaz

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
93
Location
Istanbul
I have to say, I had expected a much better game but Civ IV was a dissappointment for me ang I miss the good old times that i was addicted to civ II and so.

Some unpleasant features from last civs are eliminated in civ III and civ IV or for example in civ II if a defending unit loses the whole units were lost in the same tile, which was stupid, or artillery was for nothing in civ III and so on.

The first thing I want to complain is that tiles in civ are growing bigger and bigger, that means you can't see much in one screne, you have scholl left right up and down all the time. If you try too zoom out the and you know... You just can't play the game then. In civ II you had a view in standart size 18 tile in horizontal 26 tiles in vertical view which makes about 500 squares. But in civ IV you can see only 7x8 squares. If you zoom out a little bit you cant indicate between an axeman or a warrior.

Secondly I am very angry about these graphics. I hate them. I don't want to see trees swinging slowly through the wind, or fishes jumping happily out of water, or three man each fighting, cutting one another or something. I really think, that everything came out of a children's game: Big, colorful graphics. I don't want such things, the civilization is an elite, holy game, such funny looking graphics completely disrupts the fun of the game.

One more small detail: Have you ever realised, that so much time passes after you order to move an army? In civ II and civ III in the milisecond you touch a key the army move to that square. But in civ IV it takes at least a quarter seconds until the army reacts. Seems like a tiny little time but it actually isn't for a player like me who can move armies with closed eyes. You may think that my computer is slow but i know it isn't, the game is running perfectly well.

And of course I have much to say about combats. I can't understand why my aircraft are not allowed to destroy enemy ships for example. If you catch a bunch of unescorted transports, your bombers would crash them into the sea. But they can't, they are not allowed. Why should I watch these transports approaching my coastline?

And these artillery units are too strong. Their collateral damage is overpowered. You can attack a city with one or two catapults, and then the defenders are too powerless to resist, and the city is yours. How can you take your rivals capital with 20 units in it by sacrifiying only 3 artillery units?

And these woodsman II and guerilla II upgrades. How can someone think that one unit can move 2 tiles in a forest but only 1 on the grassland. How did it happen, that none of the creators of the game didnt thought that.

For now these are enough. I want to hear your comments. Maybe I will add something later.
 
Unfortunately, I agree with you on many points. But I won't comment on game performance, because that will change when the computer will generally become better, in about a year it's going to run smoothly on almost all computers, I think. :)

or artillery was for nothing in civ III and so on.

What????? :eek: :wow: :dubious: I play Civ3 for 3 years.... Artillery is way overpowered in Civ3!! You can conquer the whole world without any units, if you have enough Artillery! Considering that some units have lethal bombard, you can literally conquer without any units with attack value! Artillery is the most important unit in Civ3! :crazyeye: I've never heard anyone to say Artillery was bad. Just start a poll in the Civ3 General Discussions and ask: "Is artillery good?". Give the following options "Yes, it's GREAT"; "Somewhat nice"; "It sucks", and tell me how many votes you have! ;)
 
The first game or two I played, I was disappointed in the game, as well.

Once I progressed to noble level (and did some reading of this board), I've gotta say that I think Civ IV is by far the best incarnation of the game thus far. I love it.

I *completely* agree that collateral damage is too powerful and just kinda screwy, though......
 
Yes, my only BIG complaint about this game is overpowered collateral damage. At least, Catapults should not damage Infantry much . (Well, it seems that Catapults in this game do not represent catapults only, but also some kind of primitive early gunpowder artillery, 'cause stuff the game calls Cannons are avaliable much later then the Musketmen, but still...)

And I would have no problems with graphics, if not for the small lag between turns in the later eras, the graphics is partially responsible for that, I think.

And artillery was powerful in C3C, but it was clearly less powerful in Vanilla CivIII.


And if you dislike fishes jumping out of the water etc., I recommend you to try editing graphic options. Select "Frozen Animations".
 
Interesting.

At least, Catapults should not damage Infantry much . (Well, it seems that Catapults in this game do not represent catapults only, but also some kind of primitive early gunpowder artillery, 'cause stuff the game calls Cannons are avaliable much later then the Musketmen, but still...)

Apparently, Kelvar doesnt stop flying rocks from killing people :) But yeah, you do have a bit of a point. Its just that when you think of it, unless the infantry has mortars, they wont be able to counter artillery without thier own artillery or airsupport.

Then again, I've always thought in RTS games, if you use caterpults against infantry, the infantry actually move out of the way automatically... lol
 
I remenber from some where that someone was complaining that it takes 20 units to take over a city protected with 5 units, so who the hell is right?
 
Both possibly if it is the same guy I remember a lil while back. One guy I saw was using 20:5 as you say but he wasn't using artillery. Guess what everyone told him. ;)

That is, if it is the same post you are talking about.
 
And if you dislike fishes jumping out of the water etc., I recommend you to try editing graphic options. Select "Frozen Animations".

What I want to say is, I think Civilization creators shouldn't waste time on graphics, they should concentrate on, how to make a useful map.

And I more thing, in Civ II I loved to create scenarios, I used to create maps, I used to draw all the cities, unique units for each civilization and resources which are suitable for the scenario. But now I can't do such things because everything is 3D and moving, and I am not an advanced computer user who can programme such things.
 
You can still draw maps, using the worldbuilder. ;) But I agree, I do miss an editor. I miss it very much actually. With 1 click you could create a civ, and changing some text in some clear and easy edit windows allowed you edit city names, leader names, units available, etc.
 
I was very.. not dissapointed, but unsatisfied, when I played the game for the first few times. But after giving it a chance, I simply love it. Games like Heroes V and Neverwinter Nights 2 have all been pushed to the sidelines, and now I only play Civ IV instead.

I love the fact that firaxis did a little more work on the graphical side this time, because the graphics in the earlier version just wasnt good enough.
The leaders in this game is also great! Love their different personalities!

My only complain is that the maps are quite irritating sometimes. Too much jungle, desert and ice. I usually have to regenerate maps too many times before I start playing seriously.
 
Yes, my only BIG complaint about this game is overpowered collateral damage. At least, Catapults should not damage Infantry much . (Well, it seems that Catapults in this game do not represent catapults only, but also some kind of primitive early gunpowder artillery, 'cause stuff the game calls Cannons are avaliable much later then the Musketmen, but still...)


I pretty much agree. I love CIV IV, I think its one of the few great games in history. But the CAT's being overpowered is a problem since it makes strategic choice less of an issue -- always build cats.

Unfortunately, the potential solution, 'make cats weaker' isn't viable in my opinion. The issue is that cats are built into the whole combat system and can't be separated on their own.


I think the combined arms aspect of the game is one of the best. I love the way that you need to build all kinds of units and it can be decisive in combat with an equal.

However, the combined arms makes defense very strong. So, I have two axemen, two spearmen, two horse archers, and 2 archers in a square. You have an equal force. With whom do you attack? (adding swordsmen doesn't really change anything)?

Whichever equal force attacks will be slaughtered. The axemen will defeated by the horse archers, the horse archers by the spearmen, etc. This would be true even without the defensive bonus advantage. The best you can do probably is load up on axeman and let them go (with some spearmen to protect from chariots).

But put cats on both sides, and the equation changes. Now, attacking can work. We still have combined arms, but if you suicide enough cats, you can now take down a defensive stack.

But its probably too much. Now, with enough cats, the attacker has the advantage, and the best way to defend against a stack of doom is having cats of your own to hit the opponent.

However, I agree with Mirc that cats in CivIII were probably even more overpowered. My point, though, is that the cat problem is a 'combat' problem and is not necessarily easily fixed.


Best wishes,

Breunor
 
the larger problem is the AI doesnt sally forth from the city to destroy your artillery only stacks.
 
the larger problem is the AI doesnt sally forth from the city to destroy your artillery only stacks.
Indeed. It is a case of the AI being dumb, not of cats being overpowered...
 
Indeed. It is a case of the AI being dumb, not of cats being overpowered...

This is my only real problem with Civ IV. The AI being incredibly bad at warring and generally badly programmed. And no, better AI mods won't help. I'm only in it for the GOTM/WOTM. ;)

I also came back to Civ IV after finding it awkward during my first try. It's easily the best game in the series IMO.
 
Unfortunately, the potential solution, 'make cats weaker' isn't viable in my opinion. The issue is that cats are built into the whole combat system and can't be separated on their own.

I'm curious as to why you think this. Currently cats have a strength of 5 and can hit a maximum of 5 units with collateral damage. Give cats a strength of 2 and limit them to hitting 2 units and I think you take the wind out of their sails.
 
I'm curious as to why you think this. Currently cats have a strength of 5 and can hit a maximum of 5 units with collateral damage. Give cats a strength of 2 and limit them to hitting 2 units and I think you take the wind out of their sails.

Gunk,

This gets back to the core elements. Say we nerf cats to impotence. Then, the defense is just way too strong.

As I said in the earlier post, play against an equal opponent (especially if you are playing a human). The nature of the combined arms' system is that the defender is much stronger.

I'll repeat the example from my earlier post:

_______________________________________________________________

Combined arms makes defense very strong. So, I have two axemen, two spearmen, two horse archers, and 2 archers in a square. You have an equal force. With whom do you attack? (adding swordsmen doesn't really change anything)?

Whichever equal force attacks will be slaughtered. The axemen will defeated by the horse archers, the horse archers by the spearmen, etc. This would be true even without the defensive bonus advantage. The best you can do probably is load up on axeman and let them go (with some spearmen to protect from chariots).

But put cats on both sides, and the equation changes. Now, attacking can work. We still have combined arms, but if you suicide enough cats, you can now take down a defensive stack.

_____________________________________________________________

They specifically put the cats in the game to add some offensive punch. Unfortunately, the cats are perhaps too strong. But take them out completley, you can only win on the offensive if your opponent is horendously inferior; it would turn all warfare into WWI. No cats is probably worse than killer cats.

In addition, they wanted to make cats strong to balance not getting strategic resources. For isntance, try an Oasis map in the south. You usually won't get iron, copper, or horses. You'll need some strong cats.


Best wishes,

Breunor
 
But isn't there a middle ground? Reduce maximum damage to, say, 25% and you'll get that offensive punch to counter combined arms but at the same time all the cats in the world won't do you any good against a truly superior force like infantry.
 
But isn't there a middle ground? Reduce maximum damage to, say, 25% and you'll get that offensive punch to counter combined arms but at the same time all the cats in the world won't do you any good against a truly superior force like infantry.

Yes, I'm sure there is. I'm just saying that you can't look at nerfing cats without context as to what it does to the rest of the game. I'm sure there is room for improvement.

One way would be to allow some sort of combined arms attack to offset combined arms defenses, or some technique as you suggested. But anything will take a lot of testing.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
The first thing I want to complain is that tiles in civ are growing bigger and bigger, that means you can't see much in one screne, you have scholl left right up and down all the time. If you try too zoom out the and you know... You just can't play the game then. In civ II you had a view in standart size 18 tile in horizontal 26 tiles in vertical view which makes about 500 squares. But in civ IV you can see only 7x8 squares. If you zoom out a little bit you cant indicate between an axeman or a warrior.

i agree, it would be nice to zoom out without watching clouds... i mean, who cares about watching clouds, that's just useless.

Secondly I am very angry about these graphics. I hate them. I don't want to see trees swinging slowly through the wind, or fishes jumping happily out of water, or three man each fighting, cutting one another or something. I really think, that everything came out of a children's game: Big, colorful graphics. I don't want such things, the civilization is an elite, holy game, such funny looking graphics completely disrupts the fun of the game.

also agree, i liked much better the graphics in CivII and CivIII, the new graphics are, as many people have described, too cartoonish. Actually they kept me for quiet long time away from changing from Civ3 to Civ4.

One more small detail: Have you ever realised, that so much time passes after you order to move an army? In civ II and civ III in the milisecond you touch a key the army move to that square. But in civ IV it takes at least a quarter seconds until the army reacts. Seems like a tiny little time but it actually isn't for a player like me who can move armies with closed eyes. You may think that my computer is slow but i know it isn't, the game is running perfectly well.

yeah, i also agree, it would be nice if the game could run a little bit smoother also for those who don't have super computers... like me. I think all that 3D animations is what make it so slow, i think functionality should be before cosmetics.

And of course I have much to say about combats. I can't understand why my aircraft are not allowed to destroy enemy ships for example. If you catch a bunch of unescorted transports, your bombers would crash them into the sea. But they can't, they are not allowed. Why should I watch these transports approaching my coastline?

yeah, there are many strange things, also that catapults can only bombard cities, and now units in other tiles, and there are no missiles, or guerrilla units, etc... i guess there is a lot to do to complement the units system, specially for modern warfare.

And these artillery units are too strong. Their collateral damage is overpowered. You can attack a city with one or two catapults, and then the defenders are too powerless to resist, and the city is yours. How can you take your rivals capital with 20 units in it by sacrifiying only 3 artillery units?

yeah, maybe... actually i liked better how they worked in civ3, they didn't have really an attack value, and they needed always an escort. And they could only bomaber adjacent tiles (didn't matter if was a city or just the countryside to destroy improvements)... And they could even be captured by the enemy... that was cool, and it makes more sense that how catapults work in Civ4, like any other unit + the collateral damage. Why do you need to "suicide" your cats to weaken the enemy?? that makes no sense at all.

And these woodsman II and guerilla II upgrades. How can someone think that one unit can move 2 tiles in a forest but only 1 on the grassland. How did it happen, that none of the creators of the game didnt thought that.

i also have always think that makes really no sense at all... i think a unit that normaly moves 1 tile, could move 2 only if it has a special promotion... and for moving 2 tiles in forest/jungle and hills, it would need the speed promotion and woodsman or guerrilla II

...well, i just want to say that although there are somethings i liked better in past Civ games, and things that could be improved, there are also things i liked in Civ4, like the addition of religion and the new combat system, even if they can be still improved... keep on the good work guys, and listen to your fans :)
 
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