[R&F] District Timing

[Victoria]

I just feel like winning from turn 250 to 275 is proving that I am doing things very wrong.

GOTM is a great place to learn because you play the same map as any pro's playing and they will say what they did at the end.
Everything as fast as possible at the start sounds easy....there is just too much to say in one post.
replaying games to get them faster also helps. Play the same game to T70 a few times.you start seeing how fast you can get to feudalism. Knights or horsemen are the way to fast dom's
An archer or warrior army first, sure but you do need that conversion and you do need that science after T70. Culture start into either theaters or campi at around T70-90, you should have 10 cities by then and your science will outstrip everyone as well as having a strong veteran army.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

GOTM is a great place to learn because you play the same map as any pro's playing and they will say what they did at the end.
Everything as fast as possible at the start sounds easy....there is just too much to say in one post.
replaying games to get them faster also helps. Play the same game to T70 a few times.you start seeing how fast you can get to feudalism. Knights or horsemen are the way to fast dom's
An archer or warrior army first, sure but you do need that conversion and you do need that science after T70. Culture start into either theaters or campi at around T70-90, you should have 10 cities by then and your science will outstrip everyone as well as having a strong veteran army.

I have been playing GOTMs for a long time.
I haven't really posted any Civ VI because it seems they got rid of the file upload system.
However I download some of them and play them out.

That doesn't matter though.
Even reading the best players and trying to emulate what they do is very difficult.
They are using chops with the Naval card and Magnus.
They do things like forward settle the Zulu and survive with little troops and almost no city health.
They beeline for Capitals with 30 to 50 Knights or so I have read.
They can get Knights and Cartography up and win around turn 115 on a Conts Map.
It is just amazing because many times on turn 43 I have only 3 cities up.

The truth is those guys are just good.
I would be happy if I could win my Domination Games under turn 200.
Most likely I just play too fast and am not focusing on being optimal.

Some things they do on the GOTM or on the older Deity Challenge (Civ V) threads are pretty amazing when considering turn time finishes.

Getting to Knights is still tricky for me.
If I get them very fast (turn 70 or so) I don't have enough gold to upgrade.
If I have plenty of Gold it seems I am not getting Knights until around turn 100 lol.

Horses are touch and go for me.
I either have them or I do not.
Same with Iron.
Perhaps it is because I am on standard map settings.
I notice that all of my resources are pretty low or meager in most of my games.

I do have games where I just crush but I am trying to be more consistent with any Civ that I am playing.
I notice the best players will finish Dom Games very fast no matter what Civ they use.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I think my main problem is I haven't figured out how to harass the AI in the early game like I did in Civ V.
I need to get better with the Early DoW with stealing Workers, Settlers and Pillaging Mines.
I think I am focusing too much on Scouting instead of Stealing from the AI.
I also tend to send Tributes when meeting the AI which seems to be a mistake.

The other problem is being able to swoop in on the CS's and steal them from the AI.
I tend to not focus on that enough.
I think these are the things that I need to work on to get to Knights and Faster Turn Time Finishes.
Most likely I am missing more but I know that Free Settlers, Workers, Cities, Gold and other things are key in the early game to slingshot forward.

 

[Mesix]

I just want to roll to Domination Victory like the pros on here.
I must be misjudging my situations.
Either I can't pump out the cities fast enough or I get bogged down in some stalemated war.

Other times I will play peaceful and do a late war push but it seems I have waited too long and the defense/walls are a problem.

It isn't that I won't win the games.
I just feel like winning from turn 250 to 275 is proving that I am doing things very wrong.

When playing for a domination victory, you don't really need to build cities. The AI players will build cities for you. You just need to crank out units!

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Interesting Mesix!
Are you suggesting to only go with one city?
I understand that it is situational and if you don't have close neighbors you will have to ICS in some fashion.

The games that players have posted show a different method.
They seem to hard build around 4 cities.
They seem to use chops to get fast settlers while they War it up.

I honestly do not have a problem with overrunning the AI.
I don't have a problem with rapid expansion.

I constantly run into problems with balance.
I can have a large Horse Army but I might run into Dark Age problems or Gold Problems.
I can't seem to get Knights up on or around the same turn time.
It varies kinda too much and wild for me.
If I do get Knights up around turn 75 I don't seem to be able to fund them.

I am guessing my Tech Order and Build Orders are causing me problems.

I had two games recently where I won but after turn 250.

One game I fell into the early Dark Age so I couldn't hold Japans cities because Civs were all clumped together causing too much Loyalty Issues.
I held his capital but had to raze 3 other cities. So at turn 65 I only had 3 cities. I only built Army from the Capital.
I had a large Army but not really close to Knights. Most likely get them around turn 85 to 95.

Another game I ran into a Horse Barb rush that took over 20 turns from my early game.
This slowed me down along with many mountains and hard terrain that made it go slower.
It didn't help that I only had One Army.
I need to get better at having Two Armies with Two Fronts.

 

[MinnesotaRuss]

You sound like you have the right strategy. I would be careful when comparing yourself to those videos bc the map and game setup make a huge difference. I spent a couple games going purely for speed and won a science victory in R&F in 190 turns, which I know people do faster but I am too lazy to be perfect or even move Magnus half the time. The map was Korea with a ton of trees and hills.

Anyway, some maps make you slow and those guys are recording their best games. Plus they are actually quite good at the one optimal strategy for that kind of speed.

You said you got a science victory in 190. I don't know what I am doing wrong but I can't get anywhere with that. Should I campus/library right away before monument and granary? What is your tech tree? Are there wonders that help in giant steps?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

With the risk of being a noob I would say that the AH is a noob trap. Settling spots should mostly be taken by the time it becomes reasonable to build one. I always play on very small maps (tiny or duel) with extra AI:s so this might not be the case when playing larger maps.

Yeah, not sure about small maps, but on standard maps there's always plenty of settling spaces, even late game. A lot of them are in tundra, etc. so can get you extra era points, even if you never grow them beyond a single district.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

You said you got a science victory in 190. I don't know what I am doing wrong but I can't get anywhere with that. Should I campus/library right away before monument and granary? What is your tech tree? Are there wonders that help in giant steps?

I am pretty sure it is all about Chops, Micro, Adjacency Bonuses, Civ, Policy Cards and Micro of Magnus.
If you play a more unfocused game you will struggle to get fast turn time finishes.
Some of these guys roll map after map finding ideal situations.
Some of them replay or reload turns as well.
Some abuse certain bugs.

However some of these Top Players can get fast turn time finishes every game.
They are just that good.

 

[Spudsie74]

As far as domination, you can rely on the AI being inept. They can give you a tough time with the early rush, but if you hang in through turn 100-150, you should be able to steadily flattening neighboring civs; chops, adjacency bonuses, etc, are important for maximizing your output, but my main goal is to survive long enough, and grow fast enough to have 6-10 cities, +50 science, culture, gold/turn. That takes aggressive growth...breeding ike roaches. You can go for more culture, science , gold or faith, but you should be getting at least 150/turn of all 4 (total)....if you don't have enough of any one (except faith), you will not be able to keep up. 150 is a VERY rough estimate...the thing is to keep up with, and surpass the AI at whatever your civ does well (brutal conquest being the lowest common denominator), aand don't get blown away by any civ snowballing. If the spam Apostles, go on an anti-religion crusade, culture attack requires a different approach. If you can tell what rival civs are going for (hard to miss, since you can look as score"), it is pretty easy to counter it, once you get a good start. Catching up with (and surpassing) the AI is critical,\; if I don;t have a good lead by turn 100-150, I am in BIG trouble.

 

[Mesix]

Interesting Mesix!
Are you suggesting to only go with one city?
I understand that it is situational and if you don't have close neighbors you will have to ICS in some fashion.

The games that players have posted show a different method.
They seem to hard build around 4 cities.
They seem to use chops to get fast settlers while they War it up.

I honestly do not have a problem with overrunning the AI.
I don't have a problem with rapid expansion.

I constantly run into problems with balance.
I can have a large Horse Army but I might run into Dark Age problems or Gold Problems.
I can't seem to get Knights up on or around the same turn time.
It varies kinda too much and wild for me.
If I do get Knights up around turn 75 I don't seem to be able to fund them.

I am guessing my Tech Order and Build Orders are causing me problems.

I had two games recently where I won but after turn 250.

One game I fell into the early Dark Age so I couldn't hold Japans cities because Civs were all clumped together causing too much Loyalty Issues.
I held his capital but had to raze 3 other cities. So at turn 65 I only had 3 cities. I only built Army from the Capital.
I had a large Army but not really close to Knights. Most likely get them around turn 85 to 95.

Another game I ran into a Horse Barb rush that took over 20 turns from my early game.
This slowed me down along with many mountains and hard terrain that made it go slower.
It didn't help that I only had One Army.
I need to get better at having Two Armies with Two Fronts.

Regardless of victory, I like to clear my continent in the early part of the game. To do this, I build up an invasion force in my capital and rush the nearest neighbor in the ancient era and the second (and perhaps also third) in the classical era.

My typical build order:
Scout x2 (or x3 depending on production of start and how big the area looks to explore)
Slingers x4
Warrior or Spearman (depending on if I have bronze working)
District (Holy Site or Campus depending on how the start of the game is shaping up)
Varies after this (perhaps a 2nd district, a building, walls, or an early wonder)
I almost never build a monument in my capital, and I wait to build the granary (and perhaps the water mill) until my army and first couple of districts are up.

I purchase one worker, and if I clear enough barbarian camps I may also purchase a settler for a 2nd city. Generally, I need the cash to upgrade the slingers to archers, so I do not build a 2nd city in the early game very often.

Research Order:
The three infrastructure techs are almost always first. As there are no eureka opportunities for these three techs, I will research them while hunting barbarians and exploring the map for the early eureka boosts to other techs.
Either Writing or Astrology (depending on which district I want to build)
Archery
Bronze Working

Civics Order:
The order of early civics is not as crucial. I mainly want to reach Political Philosophy as quickly as I can to unlock governments. I usually go for Oligarchy as my first government.

Depending on how close they are and how many units you need to kill, the first AI can be taken with slingers or archers. If I see a settler, I will DoW immediately so that I can capture the settler. If not, I will get my units into position first.

By the time I roll the first civ (probably still ancient era), I upgrade my units, heal, and move on to the 2nd civ. This may result in a combination of Swordsmen and either Archers or Crossbowmen depending on how the early game has developed.

In R&F, once I have finished this early warring period, I generally have a golden age for either the classical or medieval eras and I am enjoying the space on my own continent. With the golden age, I can buy settlers, workers, and traders with faith (and cheap as well), so it is not really necessary to build settlers at all. I can save the chopping for districts and wonders in the medieval and later eras.

By the start of the Renaissance Era, I have generally filled out my initial continent and I am ready to spread overseas (or perhaps not) depending on what type of victory I am going for.

The biggest benefit to this method is the flexibility with diplomacy. By DoW early, you avoid the war mongering and diplomacy hits that occur when wiping out civs in later eras. The early wars are very quick, and by the time you discover the other civs across the ocean, they are happy to meet you. If you are going for a science or culture VC, you are free to develop international trade and alliances. If you are going for a domination, you can continue to build up your military (especially the navy which is lacking in the early game) and plan to take their capitals once you have explored the rest of the map.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I just think it is completely different when you play Pangaea Maps compared to Continents. I play mostly All Random/Stand/Stand/Deity. Recently I spawned next to Germany and because I had two units a little too far away from the Capital I was unable to defend with 3 Archers and a Warrior. The wave of Warriors sent was just a bit too much. If I would of had the other Warrior and Archer closer I would of been able to defend or of course if I put up walls.

I find it very difficult these days to make the Slinger/Archer Rush work against the AI now. If I am able to roll the AI which can be done if they have their Army away I usually fall into a Dark Age which will cripple the attack. If they have their Army nearby it can be difficult to take them over unless you build a very large Archer Army which will cripple any plans of expanding with chopped settlers.

If you have Horses you can play nice and get a GG and attack with them which will make it a breeze.

It seems it is just easier to play friendly now in the early game and push for a Knight Rush.

I find the balancing act to be more difficult now.

It seems it is easier to roll over CS's and steal from the AI and plan a mid game attack.
This is a general idea with the average start or below average start.

It seems that the game is very dependent on what CS's you can meet and if they will actually not get swallowed up.
I find it very difficult to swoop in and steal a CS.

Recently I had Alex nearby and stole a settler which worked out great.
I got greedy and didn't build a wall in that free city.
Needless to say it was a mistake.

It is near impossible to lose on Deity if you play a safe game.
However I find the game to be more of a struggle these days and the average win time for me is 250 turns or higher.
I do believe this is because I make too many mistakes, play an unfocused and non-optimal game.

My main point is that the Archer Rush works much better on Continents compared to Pangaea.

Now if you play with a Top Tier Civ the game is already won from the get go but I am looking to improve my game with the worst Civs.
Recently I had another game where I was Tamar right next to Zulu, Rome and Tommy.
I found the game to be very difficult since they all seemed to hate me and love one another.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

You said you got a science victory in 190. I don't know what I am doing wrong but I can't get anywhere with that. Should I campus/library right away before monument and granary? What is your tech tree? Are there wonders that help in giant steps?

Before Granary, yes. There's very few situations where a Granary is worth the investment. I'd typically only get one f the city needs it to reach 10 Pop in a reasonable time.

If you're going Science Victory, no Wonder will reliably be worth the investment. Some people argue for Pyramids or Colesseum, but as of R&F I'd say that's only true if you actually get them and don't get beaten in the Wonder race. I expect your times will be better if you don't worry about Wonders.

I am pretty sure it is all about Chops, Micro, Adjacency Bonuses, Civ, Policy Cards and Micro of Magnus.
If you play a more unfocused game you will struggle to get fast turn time finishes.
Some of these guys roll map after map finding ideal situations.
Some of them replay or reload turns as well.
Some abuse certain bugs.

However some of these Top Players can get fast turn time finishes every game.
They are just that good.

The very best times are going to involve Magnus and chopping. No Magnus and no chops can still get you a respectable peaceful victory (no taking AI cities) around T250.

The key consideration seems to me to be to remember to only build things that give you tech or civics boosts. And even then to buy them with faith/gold whenever possible. Most of the time you want to run projects.

The other key consideration is to remember that science, culture, faith and gold speed up your win times. The more of these four yields you get the faster, the sooner you're likely to win.

If you needed more "stuff" in the game, neither of the above points would be true. But for the most part, you don't need a lot of "stuff" on the map to win. You need to get up the tech and civics trees as fast as you can. If you think of every decision in terms of "how fast will that get me up the tech and civics trees", you're not likely to go too far wrong.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Interesting Canuck!
Many games recently I am getting boxed in pretty quick by two or three AI Civs.
This is before I am able to even get out a settler.

So what do you suggest?
It sounds to me like playing defense and trying to be friendly with everyone is the best method.
Scouting to move up the Trees sounds like a good plan.
As soon as you plop down one city you know everyone is going to tell you they don't like that when they are so close to you,
Even when they aren't that close I get that message over and over.
I am really starting to consider having to build walls before Limes with some of these games.

So the keys are to fly up the two trees as fast as possible.
Have 10 or more cities by turn 100.

Recently I have found the game to be more difficult than before.
I have been running into situations where if I went with a builder or scout too early I didn't have enough defense to survive a Warrior Wave.
I notice if I scout with too much of my Army that I can't get back to defend.
Some of my best games have been using a 2 hex Army Wall where the AI seems to not move if I have a enough soldiers so they will not DoW.
I am not talking about the games where I have a little bit of space or a few good CS's nearby.
Recently I have run into some games where I have 3 neighbors all over me by turn 10 to 30.
Bad rolls? Perhaps but it has been 5 or more in a row which seems odd.
Don't get me wrong... I get 5 to 10 games in a row where it is too easy and it is over before turn 100.

I just haven't found any middle ground. It is either I dominate with ease or the AI destroys me before turn 45.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Interesting Canuck!
Many games recently I am getting boxed in pretty quick by two or three AI Civs.
This is before I am able to even get out a settler.

So what do you suggest?

<SNIP>

I just haven't found any middle ground. It is either I dominate with ease or the AI destroys me before turn 45.

Yeah, I'm not sure there is a middle ground. If you know what you're doing and the AI doesn't get you early, it's not going to be much of a contest.

As to the being boxed in, I guess that sort of thing is map dependent. I tend to play Standard Size Continents, and roll after roll gives me 1 or 2 nearby AI civs, but still lots of room for 8 to 15 cities (just need to expand in the other direction). A smaller map, island map, etc., would change the odds, obviously, but I've never been boxed in by 3 civs, so not sure I have a good answer other than to go to war. Which I personally hate doing, as playing peacefully just seems more of a challenge (even though it really isn't).

My build order in my capital tends to be Builder, Settler, Army with the policy boost (usually 3 Warriors plus my starting one for 4 plus 4 Slingers), then Setter with the policy boost until I just can't Settler no more. Second+ plus cities are Walls, Monuments, districts, buildings. Buy a Builder in there somewhere to improve Luxuries that you can sell to buy other things that give tech or civics boosts. Once you get the policy boost, spam Builders in Liang's city, improving every luxury in sight, and then mining every hill. Then run projects and hit "end turn" a lot.

Better players than me would chop in districts and buildings (or chop in more builders to chop in districts and builders), but even without chopping you race so far out ahead of the AI that I've relegated chopping to the dust bin along with taking AI cities.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I usually play Random/Stand/Stand/Pangaea Maps (99% of the time).
When I roll some top tier Civ, I get depressed and usually quit the game around turn 100 because it goes rather easy.

Not all games but many games you will spawn in the middle and have times where you get boxed in very quick by Multiple Civs.

I play this map type because long ago it was declared to be the most difficult and I have to agree.

I find Continents to be much easier with everything involved and usually you have plenty of space to ICS.
Whereas you can get away with Builder/Settler as your opening on most maps, I find that it doesn't work very well on Pangaea.
Especially if you spawn in or around the middle.
At least for me.
I have read some Top Players able to make that B.O. work in every game.

If I was able to Roll the AI in every game with ease I would stop DoWing myself but with bottom tier Civs I don't find it so easy to get super fast knight rushes and what not. I'd say about 35% of my games can be a difficult struggle. I think it is because I am focusing on war and military too early which seems to hamper my Tech/Civic rate. CS meetings will flip everyone's game around though so I find speed to rely on that. Of course that is if you play with CS's and if you play with the Wall MoD as well. I have yet to try the CS Wall MoD

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I usually play Random/Stand/Stand/Pangaea Maps (99% of the time).
When I roll some top tier Civ, I get depressed and usually quit the game around turn 100 because it goes rather easy.

Not all games but many games you will spawn in the middle and have times where you get boxed in very quick by Multiple Civs.

I play this map type because long ago it was declared to be the most difficult and I have to agree.

I find Continents to be much easier with everything involved and usually you have plenty of space to ICS.
Whereas you can get away with Builder/Settler as your opening on most maps, I find that it doesn't work very well on Pangaea.
Especially if you spawn in or around the middle.
At least for me.
I have read some Top Players able to make that B.O. work in every game.

If I was able to Roll the AI in every game with ease I would stop DoWing myself but with bottom tier Civs I don't find it so easy to get super fast knight rushes and what not. I'd say about 35% of my games can be a difficult struggle. I think it is because I am focusing on war and military too early which seems to hamper my Tech/Civic rate. CS meetings will flip everyone's game around though so I find speed to rely on that. Of course that is if you play with CS's and if you play with the Wall MoD as well. I have yet to try the CS Wall MoD

That's interesting. I always assumed Continents was more challenging than Pangea. With Pangea you meet more civs earlier, giving you more early era score and more trading partners from other continents allowing you to increase the sale price of your luxuries. Top human victory times seemed to come from Pangea maps, which reinforced my belief that Pangea was usually easier to beat than continents

Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

[Mesix]

My build order in my capital tends to be Builder, Settler, Army with the policy boost (usually 3 Warriors plus my starting one for 4 plus 4 Slingers), then Setter with the policy boost until I just can't Settler no more. Second+ plus cities are Walls, Monuments, districts, buildings. Buy a Builder in there somewhere to improve Luxuries that you can sell to buy other things that give tech or civics boosts. Once you get the policy boost, spam Builders in Liang's city, improving every luxury in sight, and then mining every hill. Then run projects and hit "end turn" a lot.

Better players than me would chop in districts and buildings (or chop in more builders to chop in districts and builders), but even without chopping you race so far out ahead of the AI that I've relegated chopping to the dust bin along with taking AI cities.

Interesting. You create a builder straight away followed by a settler? Do you build any scouts for early goodie huts, map exploration, and the eureka and inspiration boosts which come from both?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Interesting. You create a builder straight away followed by a settler? Do you build any scouts for early goodie huts, map exploration, and the eureka and inspiration boosts which come from both?

Not on Deity, no. At other levels, yes, I'd gamble on a Scout more than paying for itself in terms of City State Envoys, goodie huts, etc. But on Deity, the AI is far more likely to have scooped up those free envoys, and the number of goodie huts you can expect to get goes down.

 

[Mesix]

You still get the Eureka/Inspiration boosts for finding civs, CS, continents, natural wonders, etc. Surely this makes the scouts worthwhile. I wouldn't call it a gamble, I'd call it a solid strategy based on the payoff in the game design for exploration. In most of my games, I don't build settlers nor builders. I buy the builders with gold which typically there should be enough of once I have the required techs, and why build settlers when the AI will settle cities for my army to take anyway?

I think I will try to test the first 100 turns of a game with various build orders to see what generates the best results for me. I understand that this is almost certainly dependent on each map as well, but the idea that I would hold off on producing units to first build settlers/builders is completely new to me. I want to give this a try and see how it changes the outcome of the early game.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

You still get the Eureka/Inspiration boosts for finding civs, CS, continents, natural wonders, etc. Surely this makes the scouts worthwhile. I wouldn't call it a gamble, I'd call it a solid strategy based on the payoff in the game design for exploration. In most of my games, I don't build settlers nor builders. I buy the builders with gold which typically there should be enough of once I have the required techs, and why build settlers when the AI will settle cities for my army to take anyway?

I think I will try to test the first 100 turns of a game with various build orders to see what generates the best results for me. I understand that this is almost certainly dependent on each map as well, but the idea that I would hold off on producing units to first build settlers/builders is completely new to me. I want to give this a try and see how it changes the outcome of the early game.

Absolutely. Trying out different approaches is the best way to figure out what works best for you.