djb-4: "Mac v. PC Tech Rate Evaluation"

[DiamondzAndGunz]

1500- Got writing from the Babs for 83 gold. Everyone already knows each other. Yech.
Payed 4 gpt to Germans for Horseback riding.
Traded Horseback riding to babs for 38 gold.
1475-
1450- Paris finishes settler, starts Barracks.
Settler heading NE of Incense.
Road to Tours complete.
1425-
1400-
1375- Orleans finishes worker, starts Barracks.
Reims finishes Warrior, starts Spearman.
Babs established embassy with us.
1350-
1325- Tours finishes Warrior, starts Archer.
1300- Germans in the way of Settler, retreated settler to different spot.
1275- Iron connected
Road to Reims complete.
Polytheism from babs, 11 gpt + 97 gold.
Traded polytheism to persia for 27 gold, to germany for 100 gold, to American for 64 gold, and to russia for 10 gold (poor Russia... ).
1250- Warrior that was exploring up north killed by barbarian horsemen.
1225- Barracks in Paris complete, Swordsman started.
Mines near Orleans complete.
1200- Marseilles founded.
Road to Lyons complete.
1175- Lyons completes granary, starts settler.
1150- Rheims finishes spears, starts barracks.
1125- Horses connected.
1100- Paris completes first swordsman.
Americans start pyramids.
Mines near Lyons complete.
1075- Tours finishes Archer, starts barracks.
Got Map making from babs for world map + 30 gold.
1050- Mines near Orleans complete.
Road near Lyons complete.
1025- Road near Rheims complete.
1000- Paris completes swordsman.
Lyons completes settler.
Bought worker from persia for world map + 8 gold.
Bought construction from America for world map + 201 gold.
Sold construction to Persia for World Map + 8 gold, to Germany for World Map + 62 gold.
Sold world Map to Russia for 29 gold, to babs for world map + 2 gold, to America for 28 gold.

I decided that we needed a stronger military, especially when Germany + America had some troops near our cities. It seemed for a moment that America was going to sneak attack us from the south, but they were just after a barbarian horsemen/camp near our city. Germany also looked poised to attack, with an archer and warrior fortified/wandering near our city. So far, we're looking pretty good technologically/economically/militarily. I didn't do much expansion during my turn, although I did mark down several possible city sites. The next thing we should probably focus on is either the conquest of one of our neighbors, or trying to race to settle the rest of the unclaimed areas.

It doesn't look as though we'll beat them to any techs researching @ 40 turns a tech. We may as well give up researching all together, and just focus on gaining money or building up our military and extorting tech from our neighbors.

Looking at the screenshot, you can see that Germany has iron close by, most likely not yet connected. We may want to knock out these couple of cities and settle our own there to prevent them from ever getting Iron. Likewise, we might want to keep Russia from getting horses by settling a city down near those horses (as I pointed out)

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Almost forgot the save .

 

[Txurce]

DnG, you made an interesting choice, choosing to develop our military instead of further rapid expansion. In a way it doesn't matter all that much, because we'll end up with the same number of cities. I agree with your assessment of what to do next - taking the German cities will 1) allow a better placement of a lakeside city near the incense, and 2) deprive the Germans of iron. At this point, this is definitely a sword map, so we should be ready to go very soon.

With regard to the tech rate... what's going on? Here's how I see it: we're researching our way through the ancient era at 40 turns per tech. If the AI researches at a constant rate at all levels in 1.29, then things can't get any worse on emperor or deity, since you can't research any slower than 40 turns. Doesn't this seem weird?

Now as to your wisecrack about my map blurriness... I use Graphic Converter. When we could post the images directly, I reduced them to 150 pixels per inch. I've never figured out what the ideal size is for the uploads, so I'm still just guessing. Poorly. (And I use the Uploads only because GC's files are seemingly too big to post anything that you can see with the naked eye.)

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Txurce


With regard to the tech rate... what's going on? Hhere's how I see it: we're researching our way through the ancient era at 40 turns per tech. If the AI researches at a constant rate at all levels in 1.29, then things can't get any worse on emperor or deity, since you can't research any slower than 40 turns. Doesn't this seem weird?

Txurce, don't confuse the 40 turns per tech w/ how its actually occuring through the editor adjustments. Even in PTW, 40 turns is the standard maximum. Does this make sense or do I misunderstand? I'll look over DnG's save, but I'm hoping for a fifth player. If no one signs on soon, we'll go w/ four. Where's our man, tao?

Good play DnG. In my games, I usually expand to six cities before looking at ways to "make" acquisitions.

Who's iron do we want, America's or Germany's? Boston would be a more productive city early on than Heidelburg.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by dojoboy
Where's our man, tao?

Tao has started his first deity game, is working on his income tax return forms, and has another life beyond civ III. And gotm 18 will start soon.

 

[dojoboy]

Okay, here is the order:

dojoboy
Zwingli
Txurce
DnG

I'll play and post tonight. Do we want to discuss any specific goals/restrictions?

 

[Txurce]

I'm not sure what you mean by restrictions, but I think we are primed for some military expansion. It's worth considering two short wars, as knocking off a couple of cities from one civ at this point in the game will permanently cripple that civ. Boston looks good, and moving against the Americans has the benefit of keeping Paris in the center of our empire. But I think the best single spot for immediate expansion is east of Rheims, on the tile just west of the game. To build there, we'll have to take on the Germans, which means destroying their nearby cities. Once we do that, it makes sense to go a little further and seize their iron. If we go with this plan, we'd probably want at least one settler ready to lay a claim on the westernmost territory - the iron. The Germans will then offer a generous peace, and we can swing south against the Americans, possibly in an alliance with the Russians.

I'll restate my question about the research rate. The AI researches a t a constant rate at all levels. 40 turns is the maximum it takes to research a tech. We are seemingly stuck at that rate throughout the ancient era at monarch level... so how would playing on emperor and deity be significantly tougher (at least in the ancient era)? I'm also curious as to how PC players handle this, as I hadn't heard that monarch level required a "screw research, just buy and extort" approach. In 1.21, I can hang in there researching at emperor, and even selectively on deity in my last attempt (which was based on doing just that). What do you all think about this? It's the main reason for playing this SG, right?

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Originally posted by dojoboy
Who's iron do we want, America's or Germany's? Boston would be a more productive city early on than Heidelburg.

Germany looks to be the bigger threat, with 8 cities. The Americans are about to get their iron connected, so if we want to knock them out, we should do it immediately. They are still pretty small, though, and are building the Pyramids in Washington, so they aren't developing their military most likely. Persia already has their iron connected, but they seem to be the poorest civ, with only 5 cities, so they most likely won't be developing their military. Babylon and Russia don't have iron within any of their borders yet, so they can wait.

 

[Zwingli]

Regarding research rates, although tech costs for the AI are the same at each level, at higher levels they will charge more for each tech according to the cost factor. Buying technology is therefore more expensive than before.

All ancient age technologies taking 40 turns to research is probably not typical for a Monarch game where the techs are only about 11% more expensive. In this case we worked unimproved tiles for the fist 47 turns (the governor selected the forest game and the unimproved bonus grassland). This probably slowed the growth curve, reducing our ability to conduct early research.

With larger/more numerous cities, selected ancient era research on ignored techs is probably practical on Monarch or Emperor. The potential profits from researching a tech first are now greater than before. Fast research on Deity may not be practical until later in the ancient age because techs cost about 55% more than standard, and Deity AIs normally have the population to research far more quickly than 40 turns.


Edit: As for a restriction or "varient", perhaps we should require maximum practical research once we reach the Middle ages to help test the effect of the modified tech rate?

 

[Txurce]

Zwingli, I've played on through to about 1475AD, and discovered what you just said: the tech rate picked up as soon as I could apply some serious gold to it. With a big, healthy france, it's not appreciably slower than 1.21 Monarch. But I agree that we should start researching some techs all the way maxed out, so as to amke some comparisons.

 

[dojoboy]

I'll play soon. Yesterday was spent working on a mortgage application for a new home. We are closing on both properties (sell & buy) on the same date in May.

 

[dojoboy]

1000 BC -

975 BC -

950 BC - Orleans b barracks, set to swordsman; Marseilles b warrior, set to granary

925 BC -

900 BC - Traded wm w/ known civs, map tax = 5 gold

875 BC - Chartres founded; irrigating to Marseilles (converting mine to farmland/preparing the battlefield)

850 BC - Refuse Babylon's extortion demands, war is declared; immediately establish embassies w/ Russia & Persia; sign alliance w/ Russia v. Babylon (wm & 60 gold)

825 BC - Refuse Germany's extortion demands, war is declared; sign alliance w/ Russia v. Germany (wm & 45 gold)

800 BC - Persia & Russia sign alliance v. Babylon

775 BC - Lyons attacked but holds

750 BC -

730 BC - French forces destroy Akkad (Babylon)

710 BC -

690 BC - Lyons b spearman, set to swordsman; sign peace treaty w/ Babylon, receiving Code of Laws, Philosophy, & 22 gold. Note: We fell two techs behind from the start of my turn.

670 BC - America & Persia sign alliance v. Babylon

650 BC - Traded wm to civs

630 BC - Lyons falls to German warrior!

610 BC - Elite swordsman victory produces GL (Napoleon) = build army; swordsman destroys Hedeilburg (French settler enroute); joined GL producing elite swordsman, plus another swordsman, to army (needs third)

590 BC - Russia signs peace treaty w/ Germany

570 BC - Sowrdsman defeats German spearman in Lyons during liberation attempt.

Summary: Lyons will be liberated in a couple turns. I'm thinking to establish settlement where injured swordsman is fortified next to iron source, to prevent German culture from ever absorbing the iron. Tech rate changes don't feel too different. We were two techs behind when peace deal was signed w/ Babylon, not unrealistic.

Save file.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Good thing I prepared us for war .

I suggest we found the city on the fresh water, and then just have our culture absorb the Iron. We can then take over the rest of the German territory, and build some cities around there, if needed. We shouldn't immediately liberate Lyons- if we try to take it as it is now, it'll end up getting auto-razed due to not having any culture and being size 1. Let it alone for a few turns to grow to size 2, and then attack.

dojoboy-
Zwingli- Up now.
Txurce- Next.
DiamondzAndGunz-

 

[Zwingli]

Originally posted by dojoboy
850 BC - Refuse Babylon's extortion demands, war is declared; immediately establish embassies w/ Russia & Persia; sign alliance w/ Russia v. Babylon (wm & 60 gold)
------------
------------
690 BC - Lyons b spearman, set to swordsman; sign peace treaty w/ Babylon, receiving Code of Laws, Philosophy, & 22 gold. Note: We fell two techs behind from the start of my turn.

It looks like we wont be trading gold per turn for tech from now on. Well, it should help to encourage us to do our own research.

Got it.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Originally posted by Zwingli
It looks like we wont be trading gold per turn for tech from now on. Well, it should help to encourage us to do our own research.

Got it.

Unless we can eliminate these civs before we meet up with the rest of the world....

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by DiamondzAndGunz
Good thing I prepared us for war .

I suggest we found the city on the fresh water, and then just have our culture absorb the Iron.

Are you sure its freshwater? Awfully deep.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Zwingli



It looks like we wont be trading gold per turn for tech from now on. Well, it should help to encourage us to do our own research.

Got it.

Maybe not, the only damage done to our rep was through signing a peace treaty w/ Babylon before the alliance w/ Russia ran the full 20 terms. Not too big a deal. Both Babylon & Germany were the aggressors. And even still, they didn't break any deals.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

Originally posted by dojoboy
Are you sure its freshwater? Awfully deep.

Yup. It's only 16 or 17 squares. Besides, I seem to remember checking it while I was playing, and, IIRC, it was fresh.

 

[Txurce]

Way to kick butt, Dojoboy. The GL is worth the temporary leasing of Lyons. Whatever damage was done to our rep is permanent, unless we conquer the entire continent before meeting the other two civs. In this case, it will affect both gpt deals and alliances. But I agree it's not a big deal, and also like a fresh-water spot for the city that will eventually absorb the German iron.

 

[Zwingli]

(0) 570 BC- Paris is in disorder with 2 entertainers, so raise luxury tax to 30% and fire the entertainers. Reassign some workers. Switch Paris to a settler to replace Lyons and reduce dependence on the luxury tax (Germany could poprush a spearman the moment Lyons grows to size 2 sending it back to size 1).

1- Orleans f sword -> sword. Regroup available troops to Rheims. Wake sword guarding Paris and send to Rheims.

2- Germany declares war on Babylon. Paris f Settler -> spear lux to 10%. Found Avignon on the lake near the iron as a forward base against Germany. Bring an archer guarding Tours to Rheims.

3- Persia declares war on us in alliance with Germany. Embassy formed with America, but they refuse an alliance against Persia. We recapture Lyons which is unexpectedly not autorazed (perhaps because the only citizen inside was French). Settler which was ready to refound Lyons is instead sent to Rheims. Tours f sword.

4- Rheims f sword -> horse.

5- Paris f spear -> horse. Destroy a German archer outside of Avignon.

6- Orleans f horse -> horse. Babylon completes the Oracle. Kill 2 Gm archers outside Avignon.

7- Rheims worker->horse. Russia completes the Great Wall. Kill 1 Gm archer outside Avignon. Task force of a 2 sword army, 4 swordmen, 2 spearmen, 1 horseman, and 1 archer embark from Rheims for Avignon. Luxuries to 20%.

8- 1 Gm archer dies attacking Avignon. Tours f sword->horse. Task force reaches Avignon.

9- Paris f horse->worker. Kill 2 Gm archers at Avignon at the cost of 1 sword. Upgrade an elite scout warrior to a swordman. Advance stack of mixed units toward Neuremburg.

(10) 370 BC- Kill Gm archer at Neuremburg with the army, we get the Heroic Epic message. The Americans have Currency 4 turns before our 10% research completed, will wait 4 turns for the tech.

11- Orleans f horse->spear. Chates Barracks->spear. Destroy Neuremburg, 2 spearmen and 1 archer at the cost of 2 swordmen.

12- Kill 1 Gm archer, and more Gm archers approach Avignon.

13- China completes the Great Library. Found Besacon near the site of former Neuremburg. Kill 2 Gm archers outside Avignon.

14- Learn Currency, start research on Republic due in 29.

15- Embark the healed task force from Besacon for Berlin.

16- Marsellis barracks->horse.

17- Kill 1 Gm archer. A Gm spearman is heading into Frech territory.

18- Babylon/Persia sign peace. Kill an archer outide of Berlin, and the task force is in place to storm Berlin.

19- Germans capture 2 unguarded workers with an acher. 1 Gm archer attacks the force outside Berlin and loses. Attack Berlin, and take the city from 2 spearmen with no losses, gaining 2 Gm slaves, then destroy 3 additional archers in the open. Recapture a German worker. Paris completes worker, luxuries to 10%.

(20) 170 BC- Resistance ends in Berlin, and Berlin riots. Send 4 swordmen into position to attack Cologne. A second Gm spearman is threatening to pilliage the supply road.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/djb-4,_170_BC.SAV.zip