[R&F] Do spies and envoys need a rethink?

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I know what it means, I just thought you were implying you had inside knowledge of changes to come.

If she did, she couldn't tell us. Loose lips sink ships.

 

[Victoria]

thats not very nice

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I've been having fun with Cathy on Immortal. She gets wonderful starting dirt so she can afford to be a late bloomer. Once spies kick in she has some unique and powerful options available if you care to use them. I'd like to see spies developed further but I like the way they work as is. Envoys on the other hand feel a little too rigid. I'll grant you they're better than throwing cash at the CS the way we did in V but they're still lacking imho.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

View attachment 494303
thats not very nice

He'll be back in 7 turns, so presumably it's more Profuma Affair than Spencer Perceval.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Decided to give spies and France a chance after reading this thread. Create Scandal is definitely OP. I seemed to be able to eliminate all the opposing envoys right down to a zero level, leaving me with the only envoys in the CS. Also of note, I won my 2nd cultural victory ever, hooray!!! Maybe it was the low difficulty I was playing for the test run, shrug.

 

[acluewithout]

Build Great Zim and place there, or make sure one city has significantly more gold.
Hiding great works works....building 1 big city which has most gold and a theatre with works and a campus and thats normally where they go but stealing science is quite popular now and does seem random. It would be nice if the chance of stealing science was based on the science output much like the gold you get from a commercial hubby. ... didn't V steals benefit from higher pop?

Okay, maybe no strategy was a bit far. But it doesn’t feel like there’s all that much strategy.

And my point was more that there wasn’t much strategy about where you place spies when attacking other Civs, beyond ‘the one with a spaceport’ or ‘the one with a commercial hub’. I guess placement might matter more if you’re trying to attack a civ’s loyalty, because if you flip that city it could impact the loyalty of other nearby cities.

Spies also create a bit of strategy around district placement, given that by clustering they are easier to protect with counterspies.

I like the spy system. It works, it’s fun, and it’s not burdened by overly complicated mechanics. But it does seem a bit strategically limited.

 

[Victoria]

I like the spy system. It works, it’s fun, and it’s not burdened by overly complicated mechanics. But it does seem a bit strategically limited.

sure although if you think about planning a war.
You need a spy to give you +3 or at least stop the opposition getting +3
You may need Fabricate Scandal to change the wayward CS from supporting the opposition
You may need to neutralize a governor or two

The spies themselves are tactical but the decision to invest in them and to what level is an important strategic one.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

sure although if you think about planning a war.
The spies themselves are tactical but the decision to invest in them and to what level is an important strategic one.

Yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised by how well spies integrate into the rest of the game. I would have been happy not to have had spies in a game as high level as Civ, but they do raise some interesting decisions that vary based on the circumstances of your game. Beyond the obvious "invest in them or not" decision, I find deciding how best to use them depends greatly on the current circumstances and my broader game objectives. So to me they're one of the systems that work in the sense that you use them differently depending on how you're playing and what the game throws at you.

Need to control a City State? Use them to eliminate envoys there. Trying to flip a border city? Use them to eliminate governors and foment unrest. Worried about war or going for a religious victory? Use them for the +3 combat bonus (or to avoid giving away +3) or to sabotage a factory. Trying to boost your culture or slow down the culture leader? Use them to steal great works. Trying to boost your gold for a critical purchase or before finishing Big Ben? Siphon funds. Behind in the space race? Sabotage. Winning or being targeted by enemy spies frequently? Use them defensively.