Do you use all civics?

[smusebaer]

I think that goverment and economy are unbalanced.
Both have one very strong early civic (city states and agriculture).
And very uninteresting ones
I never used
Aristrocatic (ok but I heard of some players who use it.)
Theocratie
Conquest (perhaps if you are religious or need to go for war, or you are lanun)
Mercantilism

At least Theocratie and Mercantilism are useless.
I wonder if anyone played with them?

The best thing about FFH is, that there are always several best ways to go,
but when it comes to the goverment or the economy, I normaly end with city states and agriculture.

So wouldn´t it be nice to improve the "disliked" civics?

 

[Adrogans]

I wouldn't say they are useless (damn the evil heretics!) but I understand the issue. Many discussions on possibly nerfing CS have and still are taking place. I feel the compassion line needs adjusting cause it seems to really be AV, 3 others, Good Civ/Religion. I think this line could be used to allow other of the lesser used civics by adjusting them to work well but still differently. I also tend to avoid Merchantilism but unfortunately do not have a good answer.

 

[westamastaflash]

Imho, theocracy is underpowered compared to the other options.

 

[Niveras]

I've used theocracy on occasion when I wanted to make sure I get a ton of great prophets.

I actually use merchantlism a lot, although I don't really remember what other civics are available there. +10% gold in every city is better than the extra trade route (and reduced gold besides) of Foreign Trade, especially since I tend to be a warmonger and don't have good diplomacy with anyone.

 

[Verily]

Agriculture is inferior to Foreign Trade in most circumstances, excepting when you have mostly farm-based food resources and tons of grasslands or floodplains, although obviously you will use Agriculture in the early game before switching. Agriculture is also totally useless for the Ljosalfar and Svartalfar.

Conquest can be useful if you've reached the Happiness cap in a bunch of cities without being easily able to acquire new luxuries, but it's pretty situational.

Liberty is another totally useless civic unless you're going for the extremely elusive cultural victory, but sometimes the Overcouncil forces you into it (in which case it may be even worse if your neighbors are also in the Overcouncil meaning you don't get the upper hand in culture battles).

Aristocracy is the only truly useless civic to my mind. I'm sure some people use it, but it has never seemed to have any advantage over City States for large empires, God King/Republic for small empires, or Theocracy for warmongers.

The big problem for civics balance is that City States is too strong and Aristocracy too weak. Additionally, thematically, City States is all wrong: It should be useful for small empires and grow less so as you get larger but is instead the ideal civic for huge, sprawling empires while its advantages might be weaker than those of God King in small empires.

 

[Adrogans]

Verily - Thank you! Yes always wondered why city states felt wrong. Themeatically If anything city states should be a boon for smaller nations and aristocracy for larger ones.

 

[westamastaflash]

Try playing a epic game starting in the classical era - You won't switch to City states for a good LONG time, since the other ones are so much bettter!

I rarely start in ancient anymore, I hate waiting forever for my improvments..

 

[Verily]

I think an interesting and thematic change for City States would be:

Medium Upkeep
+50% upkeep costs
+10% gold and hammers in all cities

Each of your cities is more productive, but cities like their independence, so it costs you more to keep each city. Obviously, God King would need to be modified, but it's not all that realistic anyway. The following might be good for God King:

High Upkeep
+100% hammers in capital
-50% Great Person production

Your production in your capital skyrockets, but the oppressive presence of a single god-like ruler reduces the chances of others becoming prominent. Also removes the strange extra gold which didn't really make sense thematically and was just ported from Bureaucracy.

 

[Demus]

imho the compassion line is the most useless... StW if you're AV, maibe public healers if you're a good civ, but the difference between fend for themselves and basic care is just to minimal to be of any importance

 

[Verily]

imho the compassion line is the most useless... StW if you're AV, maibe public healers if you're a good civ, but the difference between fend for themselves and basic care is just to minimal to be of any importance

The other thing I've noticed is that the AIs which start on Basic Care absolutely love to switch to Fend for Themselves, even when this results in their cities becoming Unhealthy and causes an unnecessary turn of anarchy for them. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Adrogans]

Honestly I don't think you would need to fix God King even if you change the City States. Though I imagine for City States it would be better to do something like:

+25% Upkeep Costs
+25% WW
+10% Gold and Beakers
+20% Culture

Because I suppose the best example of City-States is Ancient Greece (majory poetry, economy, but slow to react coherently to an outside threat and constant infighting)

Perhaps Theocracy should have the lower maint costs for cities due to the controlling nature?

 

[westamastaflash]

and was just ported from Bureaucracy.

Uh huh - Bureaucracy is great because it gives +50% Commerce. Gold is of situational value, say, if you manage to found a religion in your capital...

 

[Verily]

Uh huh - Bureaucracy is great because it gives +50% Commerce. Gold is of situational value, say, if you manage to found a religion in your capital...

Of course, while this is reasonably possible in BtS, at least at low difficulties, the effort needed to not found a city while beelining to FoL/RoK/OO will cripple your civ to the point of it not being worth it (unless you're doing an OOC, in which case God King/Bureaucracy is broken anyway). The chief benefit of God King, unlike Bureaucracy, is the hammers, as the high upkeep costs will quickly eat up any extra gold you're getting from the capital (and early-game FfH is more dependent on hammers and food because Settlers are more expensive).

I like Androgans' version of City States as well, maybe more than my own. My concern for God King was that the new City States I proposed was similar enough to God King that God King needed to be changed.

 

[sumit1207]

Once I switch to City States or Agriculture, I never switch out to another civic. I feel city states is simply too powerful, I don't feel the need to ever build courthouses, and weakens Order's appeal of low maintenance law mana/balisicas. There should be a severe disadvantage to it by the mid game. As for agriculture, I don't find it too overpowered, but the other civics in that category just suck. I only use foreign trade with the Lanun, and Gaurdian with FoL Ljos/Svart.

 

[KingOfLands]

Aristocracy + Sanitation is spectacular with Flauros. I've gotten okay mileage out of it, situationally, with Kandros as well, but let's face it: I don't want to build quite that many farms if I'm playing Khazad. The only other person I'd want to use it with is Cardith and the Enclaves are far superior since they arrived.

The Royal Guard are really quite convenient as well, but they're not quite enough to swing it for me most games.

I'm a fan of Agriculture as a basic civic in its line, because usually I'm only building farms on grasslands to begin with; the penalty is minor. I've used Foreign Trade in particular, and Mercantilism with the Khazad (where it is really quite good if you have no health problems) but mainly it's that.

 

[psychoak]

It's play style, game difficulty and your usual situation that determines which ones you find cheesy or weak.

The compassion civics are game dependent.

With lots of bonuses and or a low difficulty setting, one or two health or happiness is trivial, not worth the upkeep. When you're capped below 10 pop with just as much of a health shortage, it's damned nice to have protect the meek. Deity difficulty and a lack of resource boosts can change a lot.

Mercantilism is a very good civic, hugely under-rated. It's the perfect civic for when you've got everyone pissed at you. No foreign trade routes can be a completely harmless penalty. That 20% boost to gold output can be massive, especially when you're in a six way war supporting large armies and using gambling houses to get extra happiness out of the low science rate you're running to support them. If you're not FOL, it's by far the best civic in a game deciding war with the rest of the players.

City states is not overpowered. God king is vastly superior in a tight empire, particularly if you're at war. It's use is in maxing out science rates in a very large empire, that's it. If you have courthouses and aren't just a massively bloated empire scattered across creation, it's the least of the five. If you are a massively bloated empire, congratulations on not being efficient. I like taking stuff over instead of razing it too, but it's highly ineffective outside of a game ending blitz. The real kicker? Even despotism has better use than city states under the right circumstances. Try getting enough war weariness to have half your population pissed at you in a tight 3-5 city empire. A switch from city states to despotism will wipe out over half your angry mob problems and increase your culture production by 25% for the cost of just a few of those cottages you weren't getting to work before.

I don't like some of the civics, but none of them are crap. The compassion civics are often not worth it, but they are the most situational of the lot. I'd like a little more range out of them personally, it's hard to need them without being on deity difficulty, and then it's hard to get to them before either winning or losing. They end up being as much about the diplomacy modifiers as the health and happiness.

 

[smusebaer]

Normaly upkeep is eating my Empire. And I love to be inefficient. And this limits my choise of civics. At war, a civic, that reduces the upkeep cost of units would be very nice.
I don´t think that city states should be nerfed. But I don´t think that it should be the only civic that reduces upkeep.

 

[Sureshot]

theocracy is decent except that it comes too late to be all that useful, if it were moved to Priesthood id get a lot more use out of it

 

[TheJopa]

Conquest gives 25-75 additional gold when you take the city, it is not documented however. That makes conquest pretty nice civic.

 

[Adrogans]

Oh I agree overall with most these points. City States is simply the easiest one to set up for. Mainly I would like to see the compassion line with variety and use, because as we all seem to agree it is very rarely needed compared to all the others.

So thats what merch. is for. I rarely play warmongering and get em all pissed until finising the tower or alter, so never have used it much. Good info for next time.