Does Esus need a rework?

arstal

Say No 2 Net Validations
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Dec 22, 2005
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Curious to see what people's opinions on them were.

Tweakmod had some good stuff where effects were based on the crime rate, and tied it in to the Svalfs a bit.

I'd say that Esus also deserves a temple, maybe give it a heal spell useable once per turn at a cost of 25-50 gold?
 
I'd really like it if Esus players were given a choice of appearing to follow a different religion and even having a different alignment which non-CoE civs would see and presumable believe.


I'd like them to have False Priests of each religion, which look just like the real thing but don't have access to divine magic. They would be able to use inquisition, especially for removing their apparent religion from civ's that actually follow that religion.


I don't like the idea of them having a temple per se, but false temples of the other religions might be nice.



What would you think of an Undercouncil resolution to let members pay to kidnap and enslave Grigori Medics for healing them?
 
What would you think of an Undercouncil resolution to let members pay to kidnap and enslave Grigori Medics for healing them?

Makes Esus have an anti-Grigori flavour I don't think they deserve. Just give their False Priests Medic promotions - priests of any represented may currently use Medic, so why Esus should be different?
 
agreed it's heavily subpar, I think importing the changes from FF/Orbis would be great. namely, they both add some very nice promotions you can get by paying cash when following Esus. lore appropriate, fun and not overpowered.
 
The Esus temples I propose wouldn't give priests. Just a heal spell useable in that town, or an increase in healing rate similar to herbalists. Would also increase crime rate.

Tweakmod had a feature where crime gave bonus promotions to Esus units made in Esus cities.
 
Essus gives the least benefits of any religion, especially if you've bee-lined for it. Shadow riders are at the end of the riding tech tree. Nightwatch aren't much better. Both of those units, while decent, don't really offer much. Even Gibbon Goetia has little unique to offer, save being about the earliest you can get archmage level casting.
At the very least, some disciple units with unique abilities would be nice. Maybe even some wonders/heroes. Temples in the form of economy buildings would also be good.
 
Esus needs to keep its weaknesses, it just needs to have strengths in addition to what it has now.
 
I'd like to share some Esus ideas.

False Priests
False priests are the trained disciples of Gibbon Goetia and can function like spies in bts. They are invisible (or invisible to most units), can travel through cultural borders without open borders, but have a chance of being caught. They can open other players's cities to view.

A false priest is tied to a specific religion, such as False Acolyte or False Zealot, and can only bypass closed borders if the civilization's state religion is the same as their own disguise. They can only be built in cities that have both Council of Esus and the specific religion, including the target's temple and a new building specific to Esus - Underground Council Hall. They are national units (only four False Priests of any kind, not four of each).

Allow them to mimic some of the espionage abilities from Beyond the Sword, but have it consume the unit. Or alternatively, make it a spell that has a long recast time (can't use again for X number of turns) if possible. Perhaps give them a channeling promotion that only allows them to buy from a selection of espionage spells, that can only be used one time (but can be purchased again). Another alternative is to use the channeling, but have it function similar to mind 3 - if it is resisted, they will have to wait until they have enough xp to buy it again.

Use of an opposing player's inquisitor ability can destroy any False Priests hidden within the city.

Underground Council Hall
A new building - Underground Council Hall - gives Nightwatch built in the city a number of free promotions. (I like the idea of Nightwatch, but in my experience, they are too weak to be very effective, and cannot be supported by other unit types). The Underground Council Hall is a place where underhanded tactics and stealth are taught and encouraged, and new Nightwatch thrive. Free promotions could include sentry, withdrawal, poisoned blade (the nature 2 buff), mobility, or the ability to cast Treetop to assist their survivability in enemy lands.

Underground Council Halls could be a National Wonder, although I think the best way to do it is to code it similar to the Synagogues and Mandirs of BTS, the number available based on the number of cities with Council of Esus. Perhaps one Underground Council Hall for the first 3 cities, a second for 4 more, a third for 5 more, and so on, adjustable by map size.

Owning an Underground Council Hall might make new promotion types available, such as Cause Confusion - causes chaos, disorder, and disaster in the tile. Functions as a spell, rather than a pillage, so it doesn't count for movement cost. If cast on a resource tile with an improvement (i.e. horse pasture), makes that tile unavailable for a number of turns depending on the game speed. Doesn't pillage the improvement, but works like having an enemy unit standing on it. Additional promotions in the line might extend the duration. If cast on a tile with no improvement, no improvement may be built for the effect's duration.

In addition to Cause Confusion, or instead of, gives the Nightwatch the Blaze spell, allowing them to create a smoke in the tile (that isn't limited to forest tiles), and setting the lands ablaze as they travel.

I would also consider adding a unit ability for Nightwatch, Shadowriders, and any new Esus units that allows them to regenerate in foreign cultural borders at the same rate as in friendly borders, so they don't end up as sitting ducks all the time. Or a +40% regen rate in enemy borders or something.

National Units
In their study of poison handling, Nightwatch are trained to be skilled at both administering, and treating, poisons. I would add a new national unit, upgraded from any level 6 Nightwatch, which is more difficult than tier 3 priests, because they do not receive passive xp. Personally, I would have had Shadows fulfill this role, and always felt that Shadows should require Council of Esus state religion, but that's not going to be the case.

Instead, upgraded Nightwatch could be the veiled leaders of Esus, their identities private, who reign power over the Council in masked meetings. Two ideas here, and both could be possible:

Shadow Court (building)
Nightwatch of level 6 or higher can be consumed in a city to create a Shadow Court building, which increases the chances of units produced in that city of having the Council of Esus religion.

Nightwatch - Nightwatch created in this city answer directly to their council leaders, and are trained to carry hawks, to better communicate with the Council from behind enemy lines.

False Priests - False Priests produced in this city are able to use the spell Kidnap, which has a, hmm, 30% chance of removing a Great Specialist from the target city (chosen at random), and having it appear in the city the False Priest was created in. (Might be easiest to turn the False Priest into a Great Person and gate them to the city they were produced in).

Because of the use of messenger hawks by these Shadow Court leaders, better knowledge of foreign nations is possible. The number of Shadow Courts increases the channeling promotions of False Priests, allowing them to buy and use espionage abilities more often. Perhaps Channeling 2 is unlocked with 3 Shadow Courts, and Channeling 3 with 9 Shadow Courts, depending on map size.

Shadowriders - Shadowriders built in this city may also receive the Cause Confusion ability or promotion, giving them an alternative to pillaging, or the Blaze ability, as they torch farmhouses and forest.

Cover Tracks or Lay Low - Nightwatch and Shadowriders, trained by the best of the Council in these cities, may also acquire a variation of the Mask ability that allows them to become invisible to most units, but with a restriction:

Either:
1) Cover Tracks. They cannot attack or cast without removing their invisible status on the previous turn, causing them to disappear and reappear to an extent within a civ's borders, but not allowing them a complete surprise attack.

Or:
2) Lay Low. The alternative is a mask spell that makes the unit invisible and then gives it 2 extra movement for the turn, but adds the Cannot Move effect at the end of the turn. They will be invisible, but unable to move, until the invisibility is removed (can be removed either at any time, or a fixed duration, 3 turns for instance). This allows them to disappear and scatter so the player cannot be too sure which direction they are, but the Esus unit will not be allowed free reign. They can patiently hole up in secrecy within enemy territory, waiting for the perfect moment to strike and reveal themselves.

3) Either option could be enhanced by adding a regeneration promotion while invisible, so it doesn't take 15 turns or so (at worst) to recover.

Passive Espionage - Passive knowledge of a foreign civ's research progress may be made possible with The Eyes and Ears Network, if the civilization's state religion is Council of Esus (as revealed next to the leader scores in BTS with espionage ratio).

Nightfires
The other alternative (or additional choice) for promoting a level 6 Nightwatch is an actual new National Unit. One popular choice would simply be 4 Shadows of another name, increasing the effective national limit to 8, mirroring the function of Liches to Archmages. That in itself is quite powerful, but appropriate for a nation that has embraced secrecy and rejected the influences of the powerful priests and their units. Allows them to operate shadow warfare over a wider space, using Shadows to clear paths for the Nightwatch.

Inner Council Watchman
Or rather than being redundant with a variation on the powerful Shadow unit, the Council of Esus, reaching the height of its powers, may have learned mystical knowledge that is closely guarded by only the highest of their order, similar to the prized knowledge that is only trickled down to its members in real world secret societies. This national unit would represent the highest members of the Council, initiated in the secret teachings of Esus.

I'm thinking a priest-like unit in that it receives passive xp and casts a unique buff - still no heal though. My first thought is a buff that gives living units the blitz promotion, with a 100% chance to wear off on the next turn. My second thought is a chance to receive a pop up window that interrupts combat when they're attacked, and gives them an option to use Lay Low or Cover Tracks ability (see above) and retreat instead.

My third thought, though I fear it may be the hardest to code, is that they are able to earn a promotion similar to Command. Instead of a chance to convert units, when they win they have a chance to disguise themself as the defeated unit. The opposing player would receive a message that his unit had won the combat and in all appearances had done so. The defeated unit owned by the opposing player would still be under the command and direction of that player. But the Esus player would retain visibility of the unit, and can select him, with all actions grayed out except a reveal button. At any time the Esus player can reveal his Inner Council Watchman, resuming control of him wherever he is on the map, and be able to move, attack, and cast normally from there.

The neat advantage is the idea of "going undercover and in disguise." To prevent players from simply deleting a unit that has killed an Inner Council Watchman, deleting the unit "blows the disguise" and reverts it back to the Esus control, as an Inner Council Watchman, at the risk of a "witch hunt" that kills an innocent unit that actually did win.

To further make it difficult for an opposing player to guess the outcome, make the combat odds that appear to him as "???" against any Inner Council Watchman, and make their health and movement appear as "???" as well. That alone could be a very decent unique ability in itself.

Final Thoughts
I love Council of Esus, and usually go for founding it just for Nox Noctis, but unless I'm playing Kyleen, I never adopt is a state religion. (Gibbon+puppet+twincast=godly). And that's a shame. Despite how much I love the idea of the Council, I can't justify using it, there just isn't enough there - it's a very unfinished niche of the game imo, with a lot of possibilities. Nightwatch are a great idea, but are too weak and lack enough variety to stand a chance against a half-witted opponent.

Not that Nightwatch are always completely useless, but that in most games they are or quickly become so. The ability to conduct covert warfare, while very appealing from a gameplay perspective, isn't really viable except with Shadows, and everyone can have Shadows. Shadows should have been the hallmark of the Esus religion, the prize for adopting it and foregoing others, leaving everyone else with just marksmen.

The point is that Council of Esus isn't a finished religion, has a lot of potential, uniqueness, and flavorability, and I think there'd be a strong interest in fleshing them out to be viable as their own path. I think the above changes would make them balanced compared to other religions, while retaining the unique style of the Council of Esus. And it gives players more choices and gameplay styles, using an existing one that doesn't have the oompf it needs to fit that bill.

I think most of the above could all go in and it would balance it nicely. For free promotions, it might be fun to use all of them as possibilities, but keep it random on creation. Or just keep it limited. Shadow Courts AND Nightfires AND Inner Council Watchmen? That might be too much. But don't forget Nightwatch are so underpowered that the Council of Esus cannot rely on these units as their bread and butter - and traditional units are unable to act Esus-like, preventing a player from embracing a Council of Esus strategic gamestyle.

Unlocking promotions as the game progresses via Underground Council Halls and Shadow Courts helps Nightwatch be able to scale with a civilization's power, so they do not become obsolete. Perhaps base the number of free promotions or new unlocked abilities on the city's population, or the civilization's technological era, or total achieved research beakers. This way the Nightwatch grows with the era, and continues to serve the Council as intended - as active and viable units of the civilization.

Rather than be cookie cutter replacements of priests, I feel that Nightfires and Inner Council Watchmen can match the power of tier 2 and 3 priests without duplicating them, making for very different gameplay choices. Nightfire (four more Shadows) are instead of tier 2 priests, and unlike the priests, are limited in number. The main reason is it allows the player to more realistically engage in Esus warfare on multiple fronts, or in multiple arenas, since they have dedicated themselves to an Esus religion. Also, there is a bit of a gap in strength between Shadows and Assasins, Nightfires could be toned down a bit from their Shadow counterparts, and still present better viability for a Council of Esus player.

False Priests add flavor and a whole new twist to covert play, with a lot of directions a player can go with them. Passive or active, they can fulfill a lot of roles and provide a uniquely Esus approach to strategy. Their national limitation of four units prevent it from being obscene though, and players do have a way to counter them. But the intelligence factor for an Esus player is important, because covert warfare remains very limited in its scope and in its strength, and the player can use this edge to help keep their units alive behind enemy lines. Hawks later on carried by Nightwatch can help prevent bonehead moves based on limited visibility of the area, like ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Without invisibility, moving around as a barbarian unit can be a lot like russian roulette - more frustrating than strategic.

I would also like to see a melee unit on par with the Nightwatch added, so the opposing players don't just stack up on cover promotions. Doesn't have to be very special (although it could be - summons a 3 strength shadow or has a permanent shadowalk promotion. Sneak attack!). It could just be copy/paste of the new Nightwatch with their promtions and abilities, but in a melee form (no first strike, etc). But something that balances out unit categories so it's not all archery until Shadowriders is definitely needed.

Oh, one more idea. In conducting a covert war against an even matched player, the lack of mages or catapults, among other things, is a serious disadvantage that makes it very difficult to do effectively. By that, I mean that no matter how much I like the idea of it, it's usually just more effective to hammer out traditional units for a conventional war, no matter how much I like the concepts of Esus. To make Council of Esus a real religion, it's important that a covert war be more or less feasible.

Again, this is another reason that I've suggested some of the new abilities unique to Esus "religious" units. I would add the ability to learn tier 1 and/or tier 2 arcane spells to Inner Council Watchmen, enabling Esus units to benefit from spells like haste and regenerate as they move about enemy territory. But to prevent fireballs and other madness, these should be specific to certain spells, not mana types like for real arcane units. These late game units could (and in my opinion should) be able to cast Haste, Regeneration, Treetop, and Shadowalk.

Remember, unlike with arcane units, you can't just pedal around a half dozen adepts on every stack to cast these every turn. There's a limit of four - in the world - with the limitation of only being able to cast one per turn. You are going to have to apply these units in different areas, or sacrifice that option and focus them on an elite commando team. But remember what they say about putting all your eggs in one basket.... This provides the much needed utility of these spells in the late game to round out your Esus strategy and make it fully viable and competetive with late game traditional warfare, but without being able to rely on it like you could with a squadron of adepts or mages. All those spells are intended to enhance covert warfare, not make them overpowered.

For flavor purposes, the spells could be renamed too, as they all have the potential to come from non-magical sources. Adrenaline Rush = Haste. Herbal Elixir = Regeneration. Swift Climbing = Treetop (could be made to work in hills as well, quickly climbing to guerilla ambush positions in rocks). Infiltrate = Shadowalk. As I mentioned earlier, I would go so far as to give Nightwatch a Treetop spell to help them from being overrun in enemy lands, and be able to secure a defensive position quickly. But I think the other spells belong to late game national units to make them available, but severely limited.

If you've read this far, you're probably as interested in developing Council of Esus as I am. I'd love to hear what you like or don't like, what causes alarm or deserves further development. Or just anything at all. I keep reading about a desire to fully develop this religion, but very little about the specific ways of making them unique and capable of being their own capable path. These are just my ideas for how to do that, and I really do love this vision for the Council.
 
I'd also replace Gibbon. I really like him as an arcane hero a lot, but I don't think an arcane unit is the most appropriate choice for Council of Esus. I haven't given it a lot of thought yet, but one that pops up is a unit used for the Council's defense - an offensive style unit that can teleport between friendly cities for hit and run tactics. Allowing these teleports to include one way trips to citadels (like airlifts in BTS) give these structures new defensive significance. (Though I always felt that should be available to all units as one way portals from cities to citadels using obsidian portals.)

Possibly giving it fear, or a more appropriate name - Bewilder - as he causes chaos among the invading armies.

But just a teleport ability that doesn't require a portal, ideally working with citadel destinations as well, and is a separate, additional teleport from the standard one in the late game - that would be enough to give him a unique advantage that can spearhead a very "Esus-like" defense.
 
Also, I have a feeling someone will say, "But hey, they CAN build adepts and mages and such too!" I felt it was obvious, but just in case, unless there's a way that they can go hidden nationality, they won't be accompanying the Esus troops in covert combat. So they're useless in that arena until war is declared, in which case traditional combat units still dominate the Esus ones.
 
Thanks for all these suggestions Goodwill and everyone else :) Already started on a Esus+ Module.
 
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