Does Satan (The Devil) Actually Exist?

[El_Machinae]

You know, if a pitbull gets loose and mauls a kid - you know what happens, we sue the pittbull owner and put down the dog.

If God's pitbull got loose and hurt innocent beings - then he should be sued.

Anyway, 6 million jews wouldn't have been slaughtered if God hadn't made a self-perpetuating system of misery (i.e., human reproduction). The basics of suffering start there.

And why would I blame Satan for Hitler? Shouldn't I blame Hitler?

 

[Quasar1011]

You said it was satan who was exterminating the jews through Hitler. And you said he played right into god's hands doing so. Well, if satan played right into god's hands then god must not have minded the millions of people dying. Otherwise he hardly played into anyone's hands, now did he?

God minds when any person dies.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

One reason I say that Hitler/Satan's plan backfiring played into God's hands, is that God's plan is not yet complete- but it is getting closer to completion. This will come when the Messiah returns. But for Messiah to return, Israel must be back in its land. Would you like to see evil banished? I would! How about world peace, would that be a good thing? These are the sorts of things the Messiah will accomplish after He returns.

Please restate and I'll try to answer it. Didn't realize there was one since I already said I don't know this god or satan you talk about.

Who is running the world right now, God, or Satan? <--- That was my original question. I can see from your post though, that you will answer "neither".

If God's pitbull got loose and hurt innocent beings - then he should be sued.

Humans are not innocent beings.

Anyway, 6 million jews wouldn't have been slaughtered if God hadn't made a self-perpetuating system of misery (i.e., human reproduction). The basics of suffering start there.

Not according to the Bible. Human reproduction was introduced in Genesis chapter 1, before the fall of man:

Genesis 1:28
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Man did not fall until Genesis chapter 3. The basics of human suffering start there. And who incited Eve to fall? It was

 

[JoeM]

God minds when any person dies.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I think it's important that you realise from the rest of the quote that this does not necessarily pertain to existance on Earth.

It appears that to go to Heaven and achieve eternal life we must die on Earth first, so in these words I see that the Lord wants everyone to repent, not that nobody should suffer Earthly death.

In fact I think this is extremely important when you talk about death at all; I haven't yet constructed a logical arguement, but if you suffer a short period of agony now and then eternal happiness is death such a bad thing?

Of course if that death is instigated by a human, they will suffer eternal damnation, so it's not like I'm justifying the act of killing...but that death is not evil.

 

[El_Machinae]

Humans are not innocent beings.

Dead babies go to Hell?

 

[ironduck]

God minds when any person dies.

It doesn't sound like it from what you present in this thread.

You seem to have ignored my reply before, so let me copy:

If I give you a loaded gun, and tell you not to point it at your head, and then you do that just that and pull the trigger; who is responsible for your death, me or you?

If you give me a loaded gun and I point it at someone else who is innocent and you are able to stop me with no risk to yourself then you are evil for not stopping me.

In other words, if god creates Satan, knowing that he will incite people like Hitler to carry out his slaughter, then god gave someone a gun, knowing they would kill other people. That makes god completely cold regarding human life.

Humans are not innocent beings.

Yes, we all know how guilty newborn babies are, right? Plenty of unborns, newborns, and infants dies as a result of this little 'plan' your god has.

Would you like to see evil banished? I would! How about world peace, would that be a good thing? These are the sorts of things the Messiah will accomplish after He returns.

If your god wants those things and he is as powerful as you say then there is a logical fallacy. Either he doesn't want it because he's had ample opportunity and still hasn't 'returned'. Or he isn't powerful enough to do it yet.

Who is running the world right now, God, or Satan? <--- That was my original question. I can see from your post though, that you will answer "neither".

Who is running the world right now, the Æsir or the Giants? Do you know any of them? I don't.

As for your bible quotes I'm basically ignoring them by now because the way I interpret it is vastly different from the way you interpret it which means what I see is something that's entirely different from what you actually write in your replies. Therefore I focus on your opinions only.

 

[El_Machinae]

I cannot accept a world view where babies are not innocent.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Yes, God has complete power over Satan. Yes, God is ultimately responsible for Earth, and those in it. You are still mis-placing blame though. God gave Satan, all the angels, and all the humans a free will. With that comes moral obligation to choose wisely. Satan, 1/3 of the angels, and all humans went against God's will.

Did God foresee this would happen?

This is why it seems to be only rational to extend that evil is not something in itself it is a metaphysical distance from God - if Satan exists he would be the furthest one could be I suppose. I interpret all actions not as good or evil, but as ones that either make me closer or further from God.

It seems hard to deny the tangible existence of evil with examples like the Holocaust. I don't think the Holocaust was "an absence of good."

Who is running the world right now, God, or Satan?

It seems to me that a perfect God would not make a misshapen creation. Maybe God is Satan.

I cannot accept a world view where babies are not innocent.

If you accept a worldview containing an omniscient creator then humans have no moral qualities whatsoever. The characters in a play are not making moral choices - the playwright is.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I don't think Satan exists as a person exactly. All though if there was even an exact opposite of a divine ideal, or authority, I guess that would be it.

 

[EdCase]

God minds when any person dies.


One reason I say that Hitler/Satan's plan backfiring played into God's hands, is that God's plan is not yet complete- but it is getting closer to completion. This will come when the Messiah returns. But for Messiah to return, Israel must be back in its land. Would you like to see evil banished? I would! How about world peace, would that be a good thing? These are the sorts of things the Messiah will accomplish after He returns.

Could I please gain some clarification here?

If I read correctly , you are saying the modern state of Israel is required to exist for the Messiah to return? Or the home of the Israelites?

If so, why is it required ?

As I understand it they really didn't do him any favors last time round...

 

[MrCynical]

God minds when any person dies.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This is the problem I have with the Old Testament in particular, since there are numerous occasions where "God" is described either directly massacring, or ordering the massacre of people without just cause. This is less common in the New Testament, but you still can't claim God either created, or has any control over Satan unless God is either not omnipotent and omniscent, or chooses to perform evil anyway, which is incompatible with how God is presented in Christianity, and indeed my personal definition of "God".

One reason I say that Hitler/Satan's plan backfiring played into God's hands, is that God's plan is not yet complete- but it is getting closer to completion. This will come when the Messiah returns. But for Messiah to return, Israel must be back in its land. Would you like to see evil banished? I would! How about world peace, would that be a good thing? These are the sorts of things the Messiah will accomplish after He returns.

I really cannot see any genuine deity being the remotest bit concerned, or restricted by, such human trivia as which group of people controls an area of land. This is a leftover of human desire for the universe to revolve around them. Christianity arose in Israel, and hence the people there wished to think that they were in some way more important than those elsewhere in the world. The modern state of Israel and how it arose, and indeed the whole concept of the holy land, is of no relevance or credibility when discussing a true deity.

Who is running the world right now, God, or Satan?

Observation of the universe indicates that there is no omnipotent being that is either omnibenevolent or omnimalevolent. Neither God or Satan can therefore be running (or indeed impacting if they have the power attributed to them) the universe.

Humans are not innocent beings.

While the vast majority are not strictly speaking innocent, few have commited crimes worthy of death. If you are referring to the cop-out concept of original sin I must point out that it is both unhealthy, and wholly incompatible with the idea that our actions have any relevance, and that we should be judged based on them.

 

[El_Machinae]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It would be terribly Christian, then, to support efforts to cure aging wouldn't it?
Give people more temporal opportunity to come to the Lord.

 

[Sidhe]

This doesn't make sense. There wouldn't be any Israelis, unless Israel was restored. Jews, yes.

Also, the facts are that the land of Israel was a barren wasteland, until Jews began returning to their ancestral homeland around 1900. Many Arabs moved into the modern state of Israel seeking better lives, as Israel has become a prosperous, democratic nation. That is certainly a positive, no?

I think my meaning was plain enough in that the restoration of their land has caused suffering for the Jews ok not Israelis I meant jews. I would contend with the notion it was barren wasteland 'till the Jews moved in since, there were settlements towns and cities all over the region before the Jewish citizens moved in. Although I can't find a decent map of the Area at this time, I do know however that when the partition plan was implemented their were 600,000 jews and about 1.2 million Arabs. Which is hardly what I would call a barren wasteland, Jerusalem, Beersheba, Jericho etc hardly sprang back into life just because the Jews appeared. The are had been a thriving trade centre in the past and was still although backward by the standards of the times a reasonably prosperous region. Not that it matters, it's still wrong to deprive people of their land without asking them, whether they are the Tuareg or the Boer.

 

[warpus]

Yes, but Hitler had free will. His choice to obey his evil master, instead of the one true God, resulted in the success of his evil master's bidding- to a point. Certainly, God did not want 1/3 of world Jewry to perish in the flames of war.
But this is precisely why God allowed it to happen: He has given man free will. Once given, God will not countermand humanity's free will. God is allowing mankind to act out its own desires, which quite often line up with Satan's evil schemes. But in the end, history still plays into God's hands.

So, essentially, Satan is only able to defeat God through humanity, since if he tried to face God directly, God would kick his ass, whereas humanity has been given free will by God, meaning that we are able to go against God's desires and instructions, if we wish to, and so, Satan is able to tempt humans into going against God's wishes and instead following Satan's wishes, which is the only way Satan can fight God.

Sorry for the long sentence.

So why does God permit Satan to tempt us? Is it because he wishes to test us?

 

[Dionysius]

Dead babies go to Hell?

somebody answer this.
[i dont think so. well, if i believed in heaven or hell i wouldnt think so.]

 

[Quasar1011]

Okay, it's late, and I have limited time. After all, I'm getting married in 2 weeks. But I will try to answer as much as I can here.

It appears that to go to Heaven and achieve eternal life we must die on Earth first, so in these words I see that the Lord wants everyone to repent, not that nobody should suffer Earthly death.

I agree that the passage speaks more of repentance, than of death. But, eternal life does not begin at death; it begins with the born again experience.
The below passage was written in the present tense.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Dead babies go to Hell?

That likely depends on their parents.

I cannot accept a world view where babies are not innocent.

I don't like this doctrine either! I wish I were wrong about this, I really do. But, if you want truth, here it is, from King David:

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

I really cannot see any genuine deity being the remotest bit concerned, or restricted by, such human trivia as which group of people controls an area of land.

God cares about all things, trivial or not. And He decides who lives on the land, and when; since it is all His land anyway.

Acts 17:26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

It seems to me that a perfect God would not make a misshapen creation.

He didn't.

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning&#8212;the sixth day.

The problem on this thread, is that nobody is placing any blame at the feet of Satan! Which, I'd say is pretty good evidence that he actually exists...

 

[Perfection]

So, Satan makes dead babies go to hell?

 

[El_Machinae]

Yep. And since 50% of conceived embryos are miscarried, it's hardly a loving act to try to get pregnant. I can't imagine a more evil act.

For every child you get, you've likely doomed one to the abyss. A family of four likely has four more screaming babies in hell due to them.

Of course, 'conceived' might mean 'thought of', as in - can you conceive what I'm going to say next? So, as soon as you think about having children, they're evil.

So, according to Quasar, 'go forth and multiply' meant 'go forth and populate the planet and Hell'

You can see why I have trouble with this doctrine.

Quasar: man, you've been planning this wedding for awhile now; best of luck - I know how brides can get!

Spoiler :

Stressed!

 

[ironduck]

Quasar,

1) But god knew that satan would turn against him, didn't he? Yet he created him as well as humans, knowing full well that all these millions of people would suffer?

2) What do you mean 'it depends on the parents'? What role do parents have of the spirituality of a newborn? You mean if the parents are evil the baby will go to hell even if it dies the moment it's born?

3) How do you know your doctrine is correct? Did god tell you?

 

[Atlas14]

Satan I don't think exists. He's a lousy satan if he does, cause I've never noticed his evil force or presence.

 

[MrCynical]

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

No doctrine which preaches that judgement, and hence damnation or salvation of the individual based on that can be reconciled with the concept that the individual is "sinful" regardless of the actual actons and intentions of the individual. It is would be a truly sick and diseased universe where a person had sinned purely due to the actions of their ancestors or their species in general.

If I am to be judged it will be for my actions and intentions and mine alone. The being that would do otherwise has not even the most basic comprehension of morality. The concept of dead babies being sentenced to hell by a benevolent "God" is inherently ludicruous, and it taints every other aspect of the teachings to preach such sickening immorality.

I don't like this doctrine either! I wish I were wrong about this, I really do. But, if you want truth, here it is, from King David:

Again the basic problem arises. You make no effort to consider the inherent morality of the situation, and do not even compare it to the incompatible ideals expressed elsewhere in the Bible. You accept the Bible as unquestionable truth, despite the fact its origin is uncertain, it has been recorded in haphazard fashion by humans, retranslated with varying degrees of competance on numerous occasions, heavily edited, and suffered a number of reinterpretations for basically political aims.

From your reaction you seem to feel that the contents of this doctrine is at the very least undesirable, presumably due to the lack of final justice and morality it indicates. I do not understand why you would therefore accept this as truth, given the very unreliable nature of the source, when it contradicts the basic attributes you believe your God has.

God cares about all things, trivial or not. And He decides who lives on the land, and when; since it is all His land anyway.

Acts 17:26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

But this was in reference to a comment that Satan was playing into God's hands by starting the Holocaust, which eventually led to the formation of modern Israel. Why is it inherently so important that a specific tiny fraction of humanity would live in a specific tiny fragment of the world (which the Bible would have us believe is the only place that God has really done anything for millenia). Why would God permit so much death for such a trivial end (and of course his omnipotence would mean he could have found a better way, but the being described in the Bible frequently indicates itself to be not even close to omnipotence).