Does the computer play to win?

aimlessgun

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I'm pretty far along in my first FFH game and the computer doesn't really appear to be trying to win.

Not because I'm crushing it either. I tried pulling what I like to do on BTS, which is pump out 8-10 cities, stay peaceful, cottage like crazy and tech to the endgame. Except I wasn't really familiar with the victory conditions so without a spacerace and not specializing in prophets for this Altar thing that didn't really get me much closer to victory hehe. So it's nearly turn 800 and I'm definitely not the most powerful civ on the map.

And the computer seems content to just sit there. There are a couple powerful civs, who aren't doing a whole lot. They got a couple vassals but aren't conquering anyone anymore. They aren't building Lunnotar thingies. They aren't building towers. The Lanun I guess are sort of kind of culturing towards victory but I'm pretty far ahead of them and even if I put the slider to 100% it would still be like 200 turns to victory for me.

I'm not sure how this armaggedon count thing works, I've pretty much ignored it, but it seems to be staying around 15-20.

Anyways is my game an exception or is there not a spacerace type of win the computer can accomplish in a peaceful game? It seems much harder than BTS to win w/ culture, and completing the lunnotaur thing seems like it would take careful planning from day 1.

Or can I absolutely not play continent maps? My map is 3 large continents, so do I have to play pangea to allow the computer a better chance at conquest victory?
 
Your last comment is, indeed, correct. FfH A.I. does not do well on the high seas.

Continents are very likely your problem....play a pangea map, and you'll have a far more interesting game.

Also, the difficulty setting plays a large part in the aggressiveness of civs if I'm not mistaken. Setting the difficulty a notch or two higher should help as well.

I would recommend against using the aggressive a.i. option, as it really isn't an ideal choice with the new a.i., or so I've heard.

You should also remember that FfH is far more complex than regular civ, thus the a.i. has more troubles keeping up on a strategic level, due to all of the factors involved which are easy to see for a human player, but much less so for an a.i.

Humans also have the advantage of foresight and planning, among other things. The a.i....not so much.

EDIT: Emptiness should be around soon....he's quite the problem solver, and may be able to provide clearer solutions to the problems your having. :)
 
The AI does try to win, for some definition of the word 'try'. Naturally, it is not as dynamic or resourceful as a human opponent. There are a few important aspects of the AIs method of winning of which you should be aware:

First, the current AI builds no ships. (One or two people have claimed that the AI builds a few ships 'eventually', but either way the AI doesn't use them to expand to or attack another continent.) Playing on a map that is anything other than one continent is a massive disadvantage for the AI - and by "massive disadvantage" I mean that there is no chance that any AI that starts on a different continent from you will ever eliminate you.

Second, the AI doesn't understand the Altar of the Luonnotar and Tower of Mastery victory conditions. It might build some towers, or maybe even an Altar stage or two, but it doesn't actively pursue those paths to victory. Given an infinite amount of time, and with all other victory conditions blocked, the AI might eventually get around to winning one of those victories, but under normal play conditions they will never happen.

Third, as you noted, Cultural victory is more difficult in FfH2 than in BtS. Planning and focus are required, and the AI lacks both. Still, under unusual circumstances, the AI could blunder into a Cultural victory if the game lasts long enough (and of course, in a game with no turn limit a Cultural victory will always happen eventually if no one wins by some other method first). Any human with a comfortable knowledge of the mod will beat the AI in a Cultural victory race, unless the AI manages to beat the human militarily. In most games, however, Cultural victory isn't a factor because the turn limit will end before anyone has three legendary culture cities.

Fourth, Religious victory is difficult to achieve even for a human. It is often less trouble to win a Domination victory than a Religious one, because your options for converting enemy cities to your religion are limited. A human can do a better job than the AI of encouraging the spread of a religion among friendly civs, but the AI isn't too bad. If you get a situation where one religion is founded much earlier that any others it can spread around quite a bit, so a Religious victory for the AI isn't impossible. Usually it won't happen, because there are three early religions that all tend to be founded around the same time, and so no one of them is likely to happen to get 80% adoption without a very focused effort (which the AI won't give).

Fifth, combat is the AIs planned path to victory. Domination or Conquest victories are possible for the AI (although you might not live to see them, having been eliminated). The AI will attempt to build a large army with a technological advanatage, and then will attack a weak opponent. Once that foe is defeated, it will choose another target. This strategy is brutally effective when the AI is able to achieve numerical and technological superiority over an opponent. A good counter to this strategy is to focus on defensive unit techs (Archery, Boywers) and get them before the AI gets the corresponding offensive unit techs (Bronze Working, Iron Working). This will make you look like a less desirable target, and the AI will probably attack someone else - or, if the AI can't achieve sufficient superiority over anyone, then it will 'do nothing'. It is in fact doing something (trying to build more units and research better military tech), but if it is behind then it will probably never actually achieve a condition in which it will do anything. Perhaps another AI will outpace it enough and conquer it, or perhaps someone else will be attacked and weakened enough for the AI to be willing to join in the war.

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The AI is currently undergoing revision, so improvements should be forthcoming. The Navy issues, in particular, should see improvement (although not necessarily in the very next patch). As for the AI actively pursuing the other victory conditions, I can't say if there are plans to implement that. The current AI focuses (very effectively) on economic might and unit production, with a goal of military victory. Pursuing non-military victory conditions would mean different tech priorities, different combat strategies, and in some cases a completely different economy. (For example, AotL victory requires quite a few Great Prophets, but the current AI favors the use of Merchant specialists and so will never get enough. It would have to use Priest specialists instead, which would mean that it would need to build fewer units, and so it would either need to be more effective with them or else focus on defense rather than offense.) AI development will probably focus on refining the current AI before attempts to add in more complexity are made.

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EDIT: Emptiness should be around soon....he's quite the problem solver, and may be able to provide clearer solutions to the problems your having. :)
• I play on Pangea maps. This ensures that all the AIs can potentially attack me, so they are all a threat.
• I set low sea level and add one extra AI (on standard map size; if I played a larger map I might add more). Exactly how many civs you use should depend on how much early competition for city sites you want there to be. My settings usually produce competition for my third or fourth city site, and so early expansion is important. Playing with too few AIs would probably increase the risk that one will become much larger than the others, and that might be bad (unless you want to have one of the AIs gobbling up all the others).
• I turn on No Tech Brokering, to limit my abuse of tech trades (although this is much less of a concern on Pangea maps, because all the AIs tend to be in contact with one another by the time I've researched Trade.)
• I turn on Allow Permanent Alliances, so that in the later game there's a chance that two AIs (which might not be much of a threat to me alone) will ally and pose a threat. I also usually do not build the Mercurian Gate, in the hope that one of the AIs will build it and become more dangerous. (The early game is dangerous for me, but I find the middle and late game fairly easy when I survive to see them. AI alliances means there's a chance for a power shakeup.)

My suggestion would be to try these settings and experiment with other settings until you find the best balance for your play style. You may not be able to have the satisfaction of racing the AI to a Tower of Mastery victory, but you may be able to tune your games with enough advantage for the AIs so that they can still challenge you.
 
Interesting, thanks for the ideas :)

The computer has in fact built ships. Mostly the Lanun build them but Decius sent a naval invasion at me a while ago (only like 8 ships though). The Lanun have actually vassalized 2 other nations on different continents as well. The problem is that they seem to have stopped, for some reason. I guess this is a function of the 'do nothing' routine that happens when nobody is weak enough to attack, or nobody is weak enough to fall to their rather weak naval invasions (the fact that even 2 of them were successful is probably more an indication of how weak those 2 civs were as opposed to how strong the Lanun fleet was).

I am playing on Monarch (up to Immortal on BTS but scaled it back for this), so yeah definitely room for improvement there.

And I'll hit up Pangea or some of the mostly land maptypes like highlands or something to try to beat the computer at what it is good at. Using diplomacy on the 2 other guys on my continent I was able to just put a warrior in my cities for like 400 turns and ignore archery and other military techs. Much harder when everyone can invade you. Might try aggressive AI but that made me sadface on BTS.

Random side note: I just invaded the Lanun to try to end this thing, and this Nexus wonder I build is RIDICULOUS for overseas invasions. My god. My small invasion beachhead morphed into a huge stack in a single turn, and will get another stack every turn...and then they all hired mounted mercenaries...who will hire another round of mounted mercenaries...bwhahaaha.
 
The computer has in fact built ships. Mostly the Lanun build them but Decius sent a naval invasion at me a while ago (only like 8 ships though). The Lanun have actually vassalized 2 other nations on different continents as well. The problem is that they seem to have stopped, for some reason. I guess this is a function of the 'do nothing' routine that happens when nobody is weak enough to attack, or nobody is weak enough to fall to their rather weak naval invasions (the fact that even 2 of them were successful is probably more an indication of how weak those 2 civs were as opposed to how strong the Lanun fleet was).
Actually, it sounds like you're using an older version of the mod. In older versions the AI used ships. Are you playing version 0.41j? (To be using that version you would have needed to download and install version 0.41, and then download and install the separate patch J.)
 
Ah no, I didn't get patch j. Can't seem to find a description of it...what does it improve to make up for the AI not using ships? I would kind of like them to use ships...:p
 
The first post of the bug thread lists most of the changes made with each patch, and has download links for the mod, media pack, and latest patch.

The comments I made about the AI are based on the patch J AI, although some of the things I said hold true for the patch D AI (which is what you are probably using, if you installed the mod but not any patches, because the mod installer currently includes patch D).

The naval problems I talked about were introduced in patch H, as part of a set of AI improvements merged from the Wildmana modmod. The AI now runs a much more effective economy, but I don't think the lack of navy is an intentional tradeoff required for that improvement. Some of the AI aspects from Wildmana were not merged, and apparently that caused some problems with how the AI works. A new patch is in development right now, which should more fully merge the Wildmana AI (including many refinements that have been made since the patch H merge). I don't know if that alone will be enough for the AI to use ships effectively, however. If it is not, then I anticipate that additional AI improvements will be made in future patches.
 
Ah yes I am running D. So J will break save games eh...will it break any scenarios I've created? (in the process of making a custom map to start on because I've disliked most of the maps I've generated so far)
 
That I don't know. I think it will still work. You might want to save your progress as worldbuilder saves, which should load even after you install patch J.
 
One thing I can recommend if you want a challenge is to use the "high to low" gameoption. This ensures that you will have at least 2 competent enemies, especially on harder difficulties. Human economy and expansion + AI production/upkeep/etc bonuses = quite scary. :)
 
I played a deity game on pangea with 13 civs and the ljos didnt get put in. the Khazad founded RoK and no one bothered to found leaves. By turn 120 or so they won a religous victory. totally surprised me cause I was the point leader.
 
Made a custom map where everything is connected by land (but not boring like pangea, bunch of long mountain ranges and passes and continents connected by land bridges) and things are more dynamic, hooray :)

I forgot to turn on perm alliances, which was a great idea. I tried it on BTS and thought it was too cheesy but I didn't consider the idea of not using it myself and letting the computer do it.

Might try that Erebus mapscript next game, thanks for the idea.

I also tried to set it up for a big good vs. evil conflict on this map I made, but apparently 4/5 of the evil guys I randomed are TERRIBLE at economy (exception Flauros), while 4/5 of the good dudes are pretty good at it (except Sabathiel), so instead of a apocalyptic showdown it's more like the Good side is the G8 and the Evil guys are a bunch of third world tinpot dictators :( And to make it worse Flauros religioned to neutral and is buddy buddy with all the Goods and fights on their side!
 
Ah thats unlucky.
All the games I've played recently Flauros would end up founding Overlords and being a right bastard to everyone.
He probably got RoK'ed early game.
 
He probably got RoK'ed early game.

The spread rate of RoK and FoL need to be reduced and Evil guys' weightings against RoK need to be increased.
 
some options i found useful to help balancing the AI:

-Turn off AI building requirements, this is the main reason the AI fails, they dont build the buildings needed for their units, so they have good tec, but only build wariors.

-turn off AI upgrade requirements, this means that they will get those great late units that they normally cant get as they dont harvest exp like us, posing more interesting late-game copnflicts.

-Progressive dificulty. i find on empror and imortal it is far too easy to beat them in the late game if i can live through the initial bloodbath and come out ahead. after getting advanced units (arcmages etc) the game is a guaranteed walkover, and so is kind of boring at the end. progressive dificulty means it hets harder every 50 turns, so you can start on empror at the start, getting a decent start, and by turn 100 it is up to diety, so providing you some adde challenge.


and of course as previously poset, parganda map, low sea, extra AI.
 
some options i found useful to help balancing the AI:

-Turn off AI building requirements, this is the main reason the AI fails, they dont build the buildings needed for their units, so they have good tec, but only build wariors.

-turn off AI upgrade requirements, this means that they will get those great late units that they normally cant get as they dont harvest exp like us, posing more interesting late-game copnflicts.

-Progressive dificulty. i find on empror and imortal it is far too easy to beat them in the late game if i can live through the initial bloodbath and come out ahead. after getting advanced units (arcmages etc) the game is a guaranteed walkover, and so is kind of boring at the end. progressive dificulty means it hets harder every 50 turns, so you can start on empror at the start, getting a decent start, and by turn 100 it is up to diety, so providing you some adde challenge.


and of course as previously poset, parganda map, low sea, extra AI.

I like the upgrade req idea. I have seen the AI a couple times fall to the whole warrior spam thing but mostly it's not an issue. And no building requirement is a seriously massive advantage...

My last 3 games I've played around with putting the computer on teams to start with, also to try to promote epic good/evil clashes (that part has sadly failed). Won a game with two tripleAI teams on Immortal, then put in Sephi's AI fix and went for quadAI teams on Deity and got rolled by the Evil team...so scaled back to a tripleAI teams on Deity which I am in the process of winning (Grigori warrior/axe rush works really well surprisingly!).

You're definitely right about how if you make it past a certain development point playing as a builder/techer you've basically won and go into 'mop-up' mode (maybe even without fighting a single significant war!). The recently necroed story thread about the Bannor crusade definitely has inspired me to try strategies outside of my builder comfort zone though.
 
yeah, i find the "Turn off AI building requirements" a requirement for any decent game. yes that means i need to build training yards and they dont, giving them an advantage, but then we are giving them an advantage anyway. and i've found it necisary, as otherwise i'd find AI's in late game with all techs still building wariors as they havent gotten around to building the buildings.

I find "turn off AI upgrade requirements" has insignificant impact to the game, as the AI normally dont get around to the arcmages/inquisitors etc, the game is long over before then.

For the good Vs evil matchup, i often find people being traitors and allying with people who are supposed to be their ennemies. i remember someone mentioning some variables of how good and evil impact the AI relations, maybe if we multiply this by a factor of 3 then we could get those good vs evil matchups. what would be an idea for Kael would be to add this into the game options to create a world where your relations is more based on if you are good or evil compared to your religion/trades.
 
I find the AI tends to build the prereq buildings fine if you mod said buildings to provide a useful bonus in their own right. I usually let the Ai ignore level prereqs, but when all buildings are useful I don't see their need to build them as lacking an advantage.
 
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