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does the mod team have a problem with women?

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by heartofgrigori, Dec 8, 2007.

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  1. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Some copy-past? :lol: Sorry for my english. :( Ask exactly, I'll try to formulate better.

    What and who exactly do you mean? May be it was not quite fantasy. :) Even Columb did not create America but just made it widely known. That just what means to create genre. No? And I believe this ideology as it is now is mainly from Tolkien.
     
  2. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    Then what is something that is neither of these, or both?
    Like Sci-fi with clearly impossible aspects, or hybrids like Geneforge (if anyone here has played it)

    bestiality...
    half-elves...

    Different, superior human race?:rolleyes:
    Spoiler :

    That's nationalsocialist...:mad:
     
  3. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    it-ogo... I had edited my post before your answer ...sorry :)

    fantasy already existed... tolkien 'invented' the fantasy with elves-dwarvs-orcs and dragons (ie high fantasy). (I am checking my memories with wikipedia on tolkien and fantasy... it tells that tolkien did not at all invent fantasy but created the book that propusled it as a mainstream genre) (and following those definition, dark fantasy is totally different from tolkien's high fantasy)

    but fantasy is not limited to that. and some of what is not inclueded in the tolkien realm existed before him, and then neither as myth nor as legend nor as fairy tales (even then, Narnia was written before lord of the ring... but after the hobbit) (another typical exemple is the round table serie that is not a myth and not a fairy tale. it is just so old that people classified it in a genre that was not fantasy as such a definition didn't exist).

    And what I said doesn't lessen Tolkien work at all. maybe you can say he is a founding stone of modern fantasy ? IMO, He made fantasy something for grow-ups and he made it reach a large audience instead of a genre for initiated peoples or poorly balanced/dreamer ones . and he influenced it a lot. that's still huge!!
     
  4. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Well... First, if two kinds of creatures can produce children which can again produce children(not mules) then these two kinds are of the same specie from the biological viewpoint. About individual thinking... what is it exactly? Maybe cultural difference? Or just propaganda? :cool:

    but some human are evil, some are good.

    So the race overall is neutral.

    About Tolkien and Nazi ideas. It is not my personal idea - there are many discussions on this topic (I do not remember where.) But for me this parallelism is clear. While it did not prevent my pleasure from the good fantasy. :p

    Of cause it is not perfectly the same. And I do not mean political applications of Nazi Ideology (it is a different topic). What is crucial? There is a creature who can communicate, work, use tools, build cities e t.c. But he is evil (or good) from his birth to death and nothing can be done to change it. And you will be necessary in war with him as you can never coexist in the same world. That is Tolkien. No?

    Parallel with manicheism is also acceptable.

    and FfH is as opposed to manicheism as to other racial hierarchy. There are more differences between civ than between races (almost)

    Yeah, there is discussion but in frames of the given ideology and style. A kind of weak heresy. ;)
     
  5. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Yes, I think it is terminological problem. I did not read abour Narnia or see the movie so can not classify it in my formalism. :) Postmodern fiery tale genre was historically unavoidable. :D And there is always something out of any proposed system in humanitarian areas.
     
  6. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    From Wikipedia:







    FfH-like things are in red
     
  7. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Emperor

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    Calavente,

    Just to be clear, did you refer to Jews and Roma as rubbish (trash)?
    Hopefully it was something lost in translation.
     
  8. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    Not lost in translation, but just explaining what the nazis thought
     
  9. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Emperor

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    I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.
     
  10. Mortenart

    Mortenart Steampunk

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    I fear that it is comments like this that keep fantasy and science fiction pinned down in their unrightful pigeon-holes. Neither genres are constricted by time or place, or even by what is possible or impossible. The only constrictions and limitations are in the mind of the reader.
     
  11. Xuenay

    Xuenay Prince

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    Alternate history is occasionally counted as science fiction.

    I vote for just making both scifi and fantasy subgenres of the speculative fiction umbrella term.
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Critics of Tolkien have claimed his works to racist against black, Arabs, Asians, etc, and to have similarities to Nazi ideas, but Tolkien himself vehemently denies this. Although his works may contain some taint of the racism found in European culture, Tolkien was strongly opposed to racism. His works are far less racist than most from his time.


    I too think Elves and men may be considered the same species biologically. The difference between their bodies is a result of them possessing different types of souls, and to the elves having more direct knowledge of the Valar (The greater hight and beauty of the Elves is due to their association with the Ainur. Those who spent time in the uttermost west or with Thingol's wife (a Maia) are said to have grown significantly taller, fairer, and wiser.) Both the Eldar and the Edain are the Children of Illuvatar. Elves and men clearly can crossbreed, as can their offspring. It is often difficult to tell them apart based on physical appearance.

    The Silmarilion make it clear that the Elven soul is immortal in this world, but will cease to exist when the world ends. It also states that the Elves were once far more like humans (as are younger elves), but that over time they become less like men because their bodies are supernaturally sustained by their souls. Tolkien's elves actually remind me a lot of the Sidar, although they were created to be "shades" and did not rely on sorcery to gain their immortality. Also, If their spirits are weakened due to depression they can lose the ability to sustain themselves such, and their bodies succumb to the laws of nature and age, grow sick, and even die just like the bodies of men. The Human soul is different; it isn't designed for this world. It is made has a deep desire for thing this world cannot provide, and to have this desire fulfilled when, upon death, the soul leaves Ea. Not even the Valar know for sure, but it is believed that the soul of men leave the world to meet Illutatar himself, and that they will truly live on forever and take part in the creation of a new and better earth. Men were made to be the "gods" of the world to come.

    The souls of Men are also given greater free will than the souls of the Elves. The Elves and even the Valar are constrained to only act according to the Music of the Ainur which they created before the creation of the world (although they, especially in the case of Melkor, may not realize or intend their actions to have these consequences). Men are free from Fate. Illuvatar freely gave them the power that Melkor always wanted: the right to make the world what they wanted it to be, not bound even by the will and plans of The One. (Elves and sometimes even the Valar look down on men for their disregard for fate, thinking it makes us just like Melkor. However, Illuvatar himself elected to make men rebellious by nature, so this is not in fact a sign of corruption but of our original intent.




    Orks were corrupted elves. (However, Tolkien is said not to have liked this idea, and later tried to change it to make them corrupted men. It is also possible that some are corrupted men, some are corrupted elves, some are crossbreed of the two, and a few of the strongest may actually be fallen Maiar.) The fact that they are described as shorter and uglier than men while elves are taller and fairer is a result of them being corrupted by evil instead of enlightened by good. (It could also indicate that the original elven stature is intermediate between these two, i.e., the same as human stature.) Orks and golblins are the same, with the terms often but rather inconsistently used to describe different types of orks. It is possible that the different types may have originated from different races. Although they are very corrupted, they aren't pure evil. They only serve evil out of fear. They are redeemable.


    Dwarves were created by Aule when he got impatient of waiting for the Children of Illuvatar. He was confromted by Illuvatar and chastised for creating being that could never be more than slaves, as only The One had the power to create a soul. He repented and almost destroyed the dwarves, but Illuvatar forgave him and granted souls to the Dwarves, provided the Dwarves not be brought to life until after the Firstborn. No one really knows what the dwarven soul in like, whether it is the same as a Human or elven one or totally different. Dwarves live far longer than men, but are not by any means immortal. The custom of reusing names has led many to believe the Dwarves believe their souls are reincarnated into their descendants. (One group of Dwarves, the petty dwarves went extinct long ago. These were smaller than most dwarves, and I think I recall that they had less facial hair but more body hair. They were the first Dwarves to move east. The Elves didn't recognize them as a sapient species, and hunted them for food. This led to their extinction (although the last petty dwarf was killed by a Man, not an Elf, iirc))

    Aule's wife (Yovanna? the Valie of nature) was upset with him for creating Dwarves, and though that since she had no part in their creation they would be hostile to nature, destroying the trees (she was right). Thus, she created the Ents to guard them. They too were granted souls by Illuvatar.

    Trolls are the only life that Melkor created on his own in stead of corrupted. The made these as mockeries of the Ents. Unlike the Ents, these did not have souls. Any semblance of intelligence in them comes from Melkor (or latter, Sauron). They don't have any free will.


    I'm not sure about Hobbits. Halflings are said to be closer relatives of men than are the Elves or even the Dwarves. They are likely just a "subspecies" that evolved from men. A few places seem like they might imply that some may be related to dwarves. Perhaps they are a men crossbred with with dwarves (or maybe with Petty Dwarves, since I believe hobbits were said to be smaller than dwarves)?
     
  13. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    Flores humans, island smallness:p
     
  14. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    sorry broken hawk I didn't mean to be aggressive.
    as zxcvbnm said, I was clarifying the ideology of the nazis. so as to oppose it to tolkien. IMO, for nazi each races were scaled. not as evil-good, but from "aryan/perfect to rubbish/parasit" whereas tolkien just make a manichéan opposition of good vs bad (as if saying that books with angels fighting demons with neutral human in the middle are pro-nazi)

    furthermore, orcs and gobs in LoTR cannot sire, they cannot build a civ :
    here is a creature who can communicate, work, use tools : monkeys ?? + build cities : ants ?? and orcs-gobs cannot build cities : they are compelled by saruman or morgoth. (do you remember how the urukai are born : not by natural ways, did you ever heard of orc/gob women?? how do they grow? )
    yes they were "people" but not really, they appeal more to the lower demon catagory than to "geneticaly evil people that are called evil just due to social differences"

    oh and tolkien is in fantasy !!! so producing fertile children does not mean being of the same specie ... aka : do god and mortal be of the same specie ?? some books have mixed blood of dragons and umans : are they of the same specie ..? half elves in tolkien are fertile but have to chose if they will be elves-humanized or elvish-human so the half-elf breed is not fertile per-se. I'm nto sure the are of the same specie.
    plus : different sub-specie need to have a common ancestor at least + have fertil offspring : in Rl 2nd proposition means the 1st is true but in fantasy it is not: especially tolkien : eldars or human or dwarves do not have a single common ancestor : therefore they are not same specie ... fertility of mixed offspring can be explained by : 'the gods created differents species that can mixe therr DNA togethers'.
     
  15. Xuenay

    Xuenay Prince

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    Um, where's this from? As I recall, both LOTR and The Hobbit had mentions of orcs/goblins breeding quickly (I don't think it quite used the expression "like rabbits", but close to it), and I never saw any implication of it being an unnatural process in any way.

    Nor do they necessarily need to have somebody else commanding them - the ones in The Hobbit were clearly pretty independent.

    EDIT: To make the point, the following doesn't like they need an outside ruler to manage their civilization:

    Spoiler J.R.R.Tolkien in the Hobbit, chapter six :
    I will tell you what Gandalf heard, though Bilbo did not understand it. The Wargs and the goblins often helped one another in wicked deeds. Goblins do not usually venture very far from their mountains, unless they are driven out and are looking for new homes, or are marching to war, which I am glad to say has not happened for a long while. But in those days they sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get food or slaves to work for them. Then they often got the Wargs to help and shared the plunder with them. Sometimes they rode on wolves like men do on horses. Now it seemed that a great goblin-raid had been planned for that very night. The Wargs had come to meet the goblins and the goblins were late. The reason, no doubt, was the death of the Great Goblin, and all the excitement caused by the dwarves and Bilbo and the wizard, for whom they were probably still hunting.

    In spite of the dangers of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South, cutting down trees, and building themselves places to live in among the more pleasant woods in the valleys and along the rivershores. There were many of them, and they were brave and well armed, and even the Wargs dared not attack them if there were many together, or in the bright day.

    But now they had planned with the goblins’ help to come by night upon some of the villages nearest the mountains. If their plan had been carried out, there would have been none left there next day; all would have been killed except the few the goblins kept from the wolves and carried back as prisoners to their caves.
     
  16. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Continue discussion? OK. I like it. This topic is already far from FFH so I consider it as a discussion club on general topics. :crazyeye: If someone is against I'll stop and my apologies.

    Calavente, below when I say "you" - it means no offence, just ritorics. :)

    Perfect, rubbish, good, evil in this case are categories of ethical value. Both Tolkien and nazi claim dogmatically some ethical value as absolute immanent property of some genetical branch.

    The problem is that if you accepted this ideas for orcs then you may be ready to accept this idea for anybody else just from analogy. Without any criticism. It forms your way of thinking.

    (as if saying that books with angels fighting demons with neutral human in the middle are pro-nazi)
    You say "pro-nazi". I say - some influence of ideas.

    The book where main positive hero believe necessary to kill with his nice sword all "demons" species and burn their cities is definitely pro-nazi. Here I really do not mean Tolkien.

    Your reasoning is coming from dogmatic believe to the Tolkien statements. Let us roleplay. Imagine that we found a historical memoire manuscript by somebody Frodo Baggins (plus Silmarillion by unknown elven priest). Will you believe all his statements or ony his descriptions of what he have seen with his own eyes (and even dividing number of enemies by 4 and interpreting some observations in different way)?

    In first case you will find that Morgoth and Saruman were really very mighty! They have produced an enormous number of orcs and urukhais from few elves without natural breeding. They kept them in a desert for a long time as orcs has a magic metabolism and do not need food. (Just a few occasional human bodies of desert wonderers for evil pleasure.) Their magic made these creatures without individual intellect make and use good weapon and armor from desert sands, joined them into effective disciplined army, able to assault greatest citadels. There are many, many such magic issues. I do not understand why they after that all did not just eat this world for breakfast.

    furthermore, orcs and gobs in LoTR cannot sire, they cannot build a civ
    That black guys in Africa can not build a civ. And my neighbour say they are spawning in completely unnatural way: there are too many of them. ;)

    fertility of mixed offspring can be explained by : 'the gods created differents species that can mixe therr DNA togethers'.
    :lol: What I tried to formulate was a definition of the biological term "species". Common ancestor is what can not be checked experimentally but only derived logically. You see... there are facts and explanations. For the person from the Tolkien world crossbreeding is a fact which can be observed, while origin of species is a matter of Mythology, Phylosophy, (Science?) and Religion. Like for all of us. :) So are you (roleplay) ready to accept a dogma from your mythology to make a decision to start genocide?
     
  17. Xuenay

    Xuenay Prince

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    Sounds like it-ogo is talking about a conflict between the literary and suspension of disbelief modes of interpretation, here. For those unfamiliar with the difference, I suggest reading http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Analysis.html (it talks about "how to analyze science fiction", but I don't see why the same principle couldn't be applied to fantasy as well). Both methods have their ups and downs.
     
  18. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    I still don't understand why people are having difficulties distinguishing between the mod team having a problem with women, and the characters in the story having problems with women. Remember, this is a dark fantasy, good people do bad things and bad people do worse things. We have our own beliefs of fairness, and a harsh, brutal world has their own ways of doing things. Think of dark fantasy in this way: Europe in the dark ages, with fantasy making it even darker and more evil. Please don't mix it with high fantasy. If people can get away with mistreating women, or anyone not in a position of power in their society for that matter, it will happen. Magic is a way to make it worse, not better.

    MagisterCultuum: nowhere in Tolkien's work is the fate of men mentioned, other than their souls are taken somewhere else. Likewise, the elven body dies when the world ends, but nothing is said of their souls, except that they truly never gain the freedom to shape the world. A true storyteller leaves these things in suspense. If it were for my imagination, humans will inhabit the new Earth and elves will be the angels.

    I'm pretty sure orcs are elves though. In the third book of the trilogy, a couple orcs are overheard by the hobbits talking about the great siege that ended the second age!

    How do you consider elves and humans the same species biologically anyway? To elves we are like apes and gorillas, and we don't mate with apes.
     
  19. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    half-elves half-elves
    How they are formed if elves and men don't mate?
    Aragorn and Elrond's daughter, Lúthien and her human husband
     
  20. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    Yes, I know, I KNOW half-elves are there, I know Tolkien's world very well. I'm saying the SHOULD NOT be there. Perhaps I haven't made myself very clear, but then again, this is exactly the problem that created this thread in the first place.

    The difference between what IS, and what SHOULD.

    Everyone in this forum agrees that women, whether it be in our world or Erebus, should be equals to men. I'm saying that women are NOT equal to men in Erebus for much of the same reasons why women are not equals to men in our own world.
     
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