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does the mod team have a problem with women?

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by heartofgrigori, Dec 8, 2007.

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  1. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one who raised eyebrows at Os-Gabella's crime being defiance. Reminded me about that line in the Lich spell blurb about the one thing gods really hate is a threat to their authority.

    Now what would a civ that actively saught to oppose/usurp the gods look like? Most probably a smoking crater.
     
  2. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    No problem, Im actually very happy to hear that the story did have some emotional resonence with you.

    From a process perspective I tried to make the best case possible for religious fanatism. Everyone reading that story would be fine purging the veil from the world (and we certinaly never portray the veil to have any redeeming qualities so that message is consistent). I thought that was the best way to contrast Cassiel's perspective later in the story. I love that Cassiel only says 3 things in that story (2 to elizabeth and one to her father) yet so much of his character and ethos comes through.

    Personally this entry is my own arguement against fanatism of all sorts. Cassiel is probably my favorite character in the FfH universe (I know he's Loki's favorite too) and I spent a lot of time and thought on his pedia entry. And I think his character is pretty unique to the FfH universe (there are so many fantasy characters out there its hard to be unique, especially when we only have a few paragraphs to do it in, but I think we did it with Cassiel).
     
  3. Arwon

    Arwon

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    A lot of literature is pretty misogynistic, same with many videogames. Actually really, a lot of our cultural output is so laden with patriarchal tropes and assumptions that it can be hard to see unless you're actively thinking about it.

    But FFH really isn't a big offender. It's no Ursula le Guin story, but it's pretty good on the gender front, all things considered. This is especially because it's not telling a story which is in any way utopian. It's dark, it's casually and often randomly brutal, it's ruled by hardcore religiousness and people exercising fairly absolute power.
     
  4. BeefontheBone

    BeefontheBone Windbag of the sea

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    From his response I think Kael will agree with me on this one, but were I in his (and the team's) shoes I'd definitely want to be told if somebody had this sort of reaction to something I'd written so I could try to understand why and evaluate if anything should be changed to prevent it from recurring or even simply to address that individual's concerns. I'm glad it was brought up, it gave rise to an interesting discussion, and added to my backstory knowledge; I've not read some of the pedia entries, especially ones added after I started playing the mod. Mainly because the box is so tiny I think. I'm writing similar things (though generally lighter in tone, with more jokes :)) for the Mordor remake linked in my signature at the minute and it's useful to get a feel for others' work. Once you start doing it it's interesting how much story and atmosphere you can get into a couple of hundred words, or into a number of entries which won't necessarily be read in any particular order by players and which have to stand on their own. Negative (constructive) feedback is far more valuable in many ways than positive, even if it's not immediately as nice to receive :)
     
  5. Astartee

    Astartee Chieftain

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    I must be very bored at work to bother reading all of this post.

    Basically, you are saying :
    1. You know nothing of fantasy
    2. The FFH team must be misogynist because you read a couple stories about rape and 1 about an evil woman.

    That shows indeed :

    Ouch… well first, science-fiction is not a sub-genre of fantasy. To make it simple „science-fiction“ = possible future, „fantasy“ = impossible past.

    Secondly, saying „most“ comes „ultimately“ from Tolkien is plain wrong. As it stands, Tolkien, and several other writers (Leiber, Kipling, Burroughs, Haggard, without mentioning Howard with Conan the Barbarian, which you should have heard of because of the movie) had „most“ of their influences from a certain George MacDonald (not the father of the junk-food chain).

    All these writers, have had their influences from mythology, mostly germanic with Beowulf (which you should have heard of because of the movie), the scandinavian Eddas, the Niebelungenslied (Wagner’s opera), etc, but also the arthurian legends (which sports fairy creatures) greek, roman or even older (epic of gilgamesh).
    Saying „most“ comes from Tolkien just because of that commercial success from Peter Jackson (have you seen „bad taste“, „brain dead“ or even „meet the muppets“ from him? I really think you would LOVE them), is like saying that Mel Gibson invented Christianism because he played Jesus in this movie.

    It shows that you must have only read Tolkien. Well, famous as Tolkien is, he is by far not the best fantasy writer and some critics point the following:
    Tolkien was living in victorian England with all that it implies. So you will never see, anything near sexuality in his books. This, plus the fact that fantasy was considered „children literature“ shows the lacking in this department.
    So of course, a story of rape must be horrible to read in a game after this.

    „intelligent story“, please define.

    Considering the facts that these kind of disagreements, happened ALOT in the past, medieval times, where crusaders raped people not the same color/religion to „cleanse“ their race, not even did it happened in the past, but it continues to happen NOW, and will continue, I think the stories are a bit too soft, compared to the reality.

    At least making a leader called „gill bates“, an ugly gnome with the fin/org traits, would make the game more intelligent. :D
     
  6. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    Don't forget the clear good-evil divide, the Rohirrim didn't burn their POWs alive after all...
     
  7. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Male patronage... That is what someone may call sexism. ;)
     
  8. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    Slightly offtopic, buy Fairies are a group of creatures that i think deserve to be in the mod.

    i know they break the princess rule, but before being corrupted by disney, fairies would have fit FFH perfectly. think about it: fairies were once fickle creatures, powerful enough to play with time, who had fun stealing mortals away, or granting them wishes.

    maybe fairies would fit in as some svartalfar units?
     
  9. seZereth

    seZereth FfH´s art monk(ey)

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    well, we would not call them fairies anyway. and well it is ffh, think of something new ;) we dont need fairies :D
     
  10. White Elk

    White Elk 99 > 1

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    I had a recent dream I think was based on FfH, in which fleas from hell were causing all sorts of chaos for the people of my small town. Their antics reminded me of imps and faeries.
     
  11. JayThomas

    JayThomas Warlord

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    Of course you put this in the "Signs you're playing to much FFH" thread...;)
     
  12. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Emperor

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    I don't have much to add but I would like to say when I read heartofgrigori's first post, I immediately thought of Capria. She is at the top of my list of favorite leaders/heroes for reasons already stated. I never thought to take into account her gender. Misogyny. I learned a new word. Finally, Cassiel's pedia entry is the best. Thanks for the food for thought.
     
  13. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Emperor

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    pixies, brownies, gnomes, unicorns, mermaids, Pegasus? No? :D
     
  14. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    Rape won't be a very common phenomenon in the Tolkien world I don't think, as most of the battles are between different races. To rape one from another race... EEWWWW... I sure as hell won't (how does one get a human male to mate with an elven princess anyway?!)!!!! And when elves fight each other, they would never succumb to physical lust, as their bodies have absolutely no sway over their minds, anyway. If they fight each other, the purpose is plainly to kill, and that they will do immediately, methodically and ruthlessly, with no pause for pillage and plunder. So no, I don't think Tolkien's universe had to deal with the issue of rape in wartime. As for the Numenoreans capturing slaves, remember that there is a physical, genetic superiority that they have over the other peoples, and so I count that as "different race".

    I've been talking about rape and slavery during war, of course, but you're talking about the designers having problems with women in peacetime also. As I've tried to explain before, it is a natural social result of a warlike Erebus, because the physical strength of males are valued in war and women are treated by the victors as breeders and workers. It becomes a caste system that is hard to break as time goes by, much like our own world.

    Now fairies, if they were included simply as a race of smaller speaking humanoids with wings on their backs, would truly be a special race to behold in Erebus, even though their 5-feet-tall bodies would need to be supported by 5 times that in wingspan, which would create rather unique architectural, cultural and, the cool part, military styles. Besides, we need some mention of the neutral angel of air somewhere. We have way too many races, so fairies would be included with the Hippus perhaps, like Centeurs are included with Kuriotates?

    Of course, if you're referring to fairies as "scantily-dressed females" or as a derogatory term for homosexuals, then you need to leave this forum. Now.

    Or, if you're thinking more in terms of the Celtic traditions, not downright evil but nothing good either, you could include them with the Balseraphs.
     
  15. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    This thread is so cool :)

    Here comes a long long post ... sorry :D (I hope ideas are not too messed-up)

    just about rape and all that 'misogynic' stuff (hope there is no spelling error)

    IMO, in FfH, there are not male/female inequity... because male and female are inegal !!!! (shocking no?) really.. we are not the same : one can bear child, one cannot, one get (usually) a stronger build, one doesn't, one can easilly be forced to have sex, for the other it is a bit more difficult.. achievable but a bit more difficult.. add to that that our emotional system doesn't function in the same way, that our gonad system (and thus maybe lust) are different, (women being in cycles and men not) this allows for much more differences between the two sex as a standard equality would mean. Both sex are humans, but there are many inherent differences... it doesn't mean one is worth more than the other...

    and you may add that most male are more compelled to have sex with a female than with another male...
    having a guy rape another male is less frequent (not unheard off but..) than doing it with a female. (how many time do you heard on the radio or TV of guys raped or killed with signes of aptempted rape ??)
    in a world with untold horrors, so much chaos and evil, it is "normal" that female destiny (even strong ones) when caught/prisonner or pillaged is to be ravished. You won't hear of the man because either : they are forced into the army, they are killed if too old, too aggressive, too young, they are slod as slaves and that end here. maybe the orc, demons and vampire eat them.

    then with women they can do the same thing + have forced sex... more fun to them.

    not-using prisoner (or lower-level) women as such asks for a degree of civilization and of public morallity that is sparse in FfH evil-civs but not inexistant.

    furthermore, mostly, having strong leaders and charcter includes them having had very hard times before "you forge the better blades in the hotest forges". In fantasy lore it means real hard times : having familly killed, being an abused slave, having friends betray you...etc most colorful charcters comes form those sources. (ok, or jsut being totally evil) that is why some leaders are portrayed has having such hard debuts.

    I would propose you two book series that are really really treating women as equals to men (best way to envision male-female relation IMO) one is SF, one is Fantasy (oups, dark fantasy).
    -honor harrington serie from dave weber : women are typically equal to men, the heroine is a woman, maybe one of the most strong-will caracter ever made. but when you leave the protection of civilized peoples, the women are badly treated... maybe more so than men.
    -fifth millenium from stirling and Meyer : women and men are equals. heroine are women, they are treated just as bad, and can accomplish just as much. but women in those barbaric land are more often raped than males...

    you won't ever find those books misogynics..

    just saying your issue with women in FfH is maybe more a problem with accepting differences between sexs and that when in position of bloodlust and barbarism, men and women act differently, that maybe women tend to do more data processing with there emotions than men and men more with brute strength... adn both with intelligence, sometimes.

    then, men (enven dark fantasy men) are more emotional about girls than about boys. they are more willing to go to war over their only girl than over there only son... (well, not really, but there will be different emotion behind) and reverse is true. so having die little boy instead of a elisabeth would need a woman to speak with cassiel to get the same emotional intensity... changing the whole story and not just a 'sex detail'... because having a desperate farm woman coming to cassiel would lose some appeal. so she would have to be interesting, meaning not your usual peace-town citizen... and thus the back story would have to change...etc.

    as for 'princess rules'.. I'd love to have back soome unicorns you know, the mean viscious horse shaped creature, that impals all that moves...

    and I really love the cassiel entry... one of my prefered charcater in FfH I don't play him often as I'm not a very good grigori player but I love this guy !!
     
  16. wilboman

    wilboman Hibernorse Frost Giant

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    Well, as far as I'm concerned, the Svartalfar are the Faeries of the FfH universe, in the good, old-fashioned mischevious and harmful sense.
     
  17. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    about christian lore ... and tolkien..

    some fantasy is tolkien based.. think forgotten realms / D&D.
    but most recent fantasy is no tolkien based...
    if it were it won't be read anymore.. there is already much of it.

    and IMO, maybe you are putting your tolkien-based conception of fantasy on the civ and character of FfH...
    coz FfH kazad, luirchips and ljosalfar never made me think of dwarves and elves more than that.. the hippus are not the rohirrim.. etc. (only things like a red firebreathing dragon on a hoard with mithril, gold an gems seems a bit like a bilbo thing...
    I really can link those civs with other ones, from other books that are totally different than tolkien. It isj just that for many people, 'inculing me) we are really eager to link any elf-kind race with tolkien elves.. be if Alfen, eary-people, old-ones, first-borns, Eldars, Alfars, sylves, wherever they are tall, small, magic, technicians, treehugger, cave dwellers or else.

    (oh, what about a bug-civs ??)

    sure there are lot of thing taken from tolkien, but the order, bannor and malakim seem coming from jordan's wheel of times, orcs and more warcraft and DnD orcs than tolkien orcs, sidar are coming from I not know where, Loki is totally coming form the chaos god of nordic mythology, lanun are your typical pirates from ..., OO is lovecraft inspired IMO, ashenveil may come from many sources, even the "deed of paksenarion", mercenaries may come from anywhere but surely neither tolkien nor christian lore... the way magic works may look like mercedes lackey's, cleary not a standard DnD or gandalf type. the battle between angels/god is clearly not christian stuff, maybe a bit of tolkien lore.
    ...etc

    (I would love to have somewhere a thread on sources that inspired most charcater such as : Ljosalfar are inspired from lothorien elves mixed with a bit of this and that... ) lol
     
  18. Xuenay

    Xuenay Prince

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    I always thought as the Svartalfar as the FfH fairies, as well.

    Saruman cross-bred men with orcs - I don't think many of those were volunteers. Though I'm not sure if that counts as war-time or peace-time rape.
     
  19. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Tolkien created fantasy genre. Before there were mythology and fiery tales but they are different in style and ideology. Tolkiens product is a kind of eclectic mixture of Mythology, Christian and National-Socialist ideas. For me its characteristic feature is the dogmatic division of the echologically more-less similar intelligent races into genetically good and evil ones. From this point of view FFH is pure tolkienistic.
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    repeat please ... ???:dubious: :hmm: :wallbash: :confused:
    I think I didn't understand...

    fantasy existed before tolkien IMO... but not so much.
    Tolkien made it be known.

    EDIT: and If I understand I totally disagree...

    orc and gobs and uruk-ai are gene-modified (tortured) humans-dwarvs-elves...
    but some human are evil, some are good.

    orcs and gobs are not really peoples... they do not seem to have a real individual thinking in tolkien. (ok, maybe a bit)

    then I don't understand the parallelisme to national socialism... IMO there is effectively a big undercurrent that specie is very important on behaivour... but thats not racisme !!! even if there are some undertones. That has nothing to do with Nat-soc.. maybe a bit more with anti-black , pro-KKK pro south-USA of the time. Nat-pro was that each people was a race, with a huge scale of variation, differences between germanic (aryan, english, prussian) slavish(polish russians..Etc) latin (ilatlian, french) and rubbish (jew, rom) and in each big cathegory there were differences and ranking between each under casts.
    in kkk it is more : each that is not-white is bad.

    tolkien is more about manicheism than about racisme. and what is best to shows manicheisme than having many races, all differents, all with strengh and weakness all good... opposing a race of monsters, of evily (w/ or w/o pun) modified version of the former races.

    and FfH is as opposed to manicheism as to other racial hierarchy. There are more differences between civ than between races (almost)
     
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