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does the mod team have a problem with women?

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by heartofgrigori, Dec 8, 2007.

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  1. jprc

    jprc My dog is smarter than me

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    Well...
    I will not use beautiful words and high concepts and show my lack of knowledge in "Tolkien", "fantasy words" and so on, especially after so many lectures...

    I do not play many games.
    I have started FFH not long ago (last September), and I am not a specialist of fantasy things.

    However...

    I do recall having thought the same thing as the 1st poster when I first red the stories., but in milder terms,
    Perhaps because I have fresh eyes and little knowledge of all Dungeon & Dragon stories, and I was surprised to see so many things available for reading, whilst I am thinking very simply: a game is made for enjoying a time against others or yourself (i.e. the computer).I expected to see somehow a manual (click there for getting that), and I got an ambiance…
    I did thought “they are tough on the women” because I did not expect so much depth in all satellite stories. It is confusing for a casual player to see so much information available on an imaginary computer game. And it still let me confused as it is like a puzzle and a matter of patience.
    I recalled having even thought: this should be in a book on its own. After all, it is not a very optimistic reading, and everything has always to be fought for, or destroyed at the end, and there are many stories that are in fact too short and some strong situations are put forward without time for introducing a balance of events…

    Some months later, I would say that all these darks stories about women are just a reflect of our world. I live in Mozambique, I worked also in Chad, Rwanda, Kosovo, Sudan, Timor Leste and some other pretty places. What I see right now through my window, and what my nightmares recall me is actually so much worst in “misogyny” or “sexism” that what is mildly set out in the texts.

    Where I work/worked, women are even not the cost of cattle…

    "does the mod team have a problem with women? "
    I don't think they have a "problem". I think they are from various countries, and they give their artistic view of what they see through their windows...
     
  2. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    It bears remembering that, in order to have the dark atmosphere Kael was after, he had the gods of hope, trust, foresight, and peace all turn evil. This doesn't mean this things don't exist at all, but that they are much harder to attain and not the natural inclination of people. In international affairs, but also domestic. Worse treatment of weaker by stronger is probably explained by such a setting, but we don't really want to go on at length about every horrible thing.

    Speaking of Africa, Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Infidel is a good lesson on inequality in some parts of the world most of us are probably unfamiliar with.
     
  3. Cuteunit

    Cuteunit Danse Macabre

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    I'd just like to write a female sidar, myself :/ that civ is a sausage party.
     
  4. Mewtarthio

    Mewtarthio Emperor

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    And then he went and killed off the God of Stasis to ensure the despairing, paranoid, impulsive, and violent world would have a fun and eventful future? ;)
     
  5. Eldric IV

    Eldric IV Chieftain

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    No, he just could not afford the upkeep and had to sacrifice it.
     
  6. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    No, he did Acheron
     
  7. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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  8. Cuteunit

    Cuteunit Danse Macabre

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    None of those are funny.
     
  9. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    Is that supposed to mean anything beyond that their author is an average citizen of FfH world?
     
  10. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Yeah... there is no reason for those to even exist. It could MAYBE be SLIGHTLY funny if used in a proper place/time to be purely sarcastic. But this isn't the proper place, nor time, because there is nobody to satarize with it. And sarcasm is never effective in volume. You posted far too many, with no supporting "setting the mood" to make it even plausible that it was meant jokingly.


    Comedic timing: Learn it, Live it, or stay the heck away from it.
     
  11. thewyrm

    thewyrm Ambassador to Real Life

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    I just want to throw out a real quick comment on the whole "Tolkien didn't give individuality or personality to the orcs and goblins" idea. Did you miss that chapter where Samwise overhears two Orcs on guard duty chatting like girls at a hair salon about what their plans for the future are?
     
  12. jprc

    jprc My dog is smarter than me

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    is it in the 3rd LoR, toward the end when then reach the Mordor? Can you tell us which chapter?
     
  13. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    prolly the last chapter of two towers, The Choices of Master Samwise, when sam overhears two orcs discussing shelob for the most part.. but theres a part where the orcs mention getting away from it all and working for themselves and such
     
  14. thewyrm

    thewyrm Ambassador to Real Life

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    Sureshot has it right I believe. It has been a few years since my last read through. I always loved that part, these two bestial orcs having a conversation between friends.
     
  15. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    its also important to note that goblins/orcs in tolkiens world are corrupted elves, not simplistic evil beings; morgoth used to take them deep into his dungeons and torture them, he wasnt able to create his own life, only corrupt others. the trolls could be said to be unintelligent and simplistic tho, as they were supposed to just be earth animated by saurons (or maybe left over morgoths) will, which is why they return to stone when exposed to light (the evil will driving them is dispersed), as opposed to goblins which merely cower in sunlight since it reveals the depth of their corruption under the light of their true creator (likely inspiring shame and fear of what theyve become).
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The Valar were quite capable of creating life, but cannot create a soul. Their creations would not have free agency, but be merely soulless slaves to the will that created them. The Dwarves would be as soulless as Trolls, had not Aule repented and almost destroyed his creations. Eru took pity on him, and granted them souls so long as they would not wake until after the elves. This upset Aule's wife, the Vala of nature, who believed that because Aule had acted without her the Dwarves would have no respect for nature. Ents were created specifically to protect the trees from the Dwarves (and because she was mad at her husband), and the she somehow too convinced Illuvatar to grant them souls. Then of course Melkor created Trolls as mockeries of the Ents, but he had no desire to give them souls.

    He wanted all the rest of creation to likewise merely bow down to his will alone. I don't think their lack of agency necessarily made these creatures are stupid; they usually are, but those in Mordor close to the dark will of their master are said to have grown quite cunning, in a brutal kind of way. Also, I don't think they were destroyed by the absence of his will; they just became rather helpless and confused, unable to make decisions on their own.
     
  17. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    ya by life i meant souls
    when you say "those in mordor close to the dark will of their master" do you mean trolls or orcs? theres no doubt as to whether orcs could be cunning, they had souls and such however corrupted they might be. but as for trolls, id think any intelligence would be more like that of a golems programming or orders. trolls were destroyed by the absence of morgoths (or whoevers) will (atleast in the hobbit) which left in the presence of sunlight as i understand it. orcs would likely get confused because sunlight did similarly to them, caused the absence of their masters will.
     
  18. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I'm pretty sure that LotR said that some of the Trolls in Mordor were becoming cunning, but that they were usually quite stupid. Orc were often quite cunning anyways, even when not serving a master. I'm pretty sure that it does describe trolls still alive after the destruction of the ring, but no longer having any idea what they are supposed to do. I haven't read the Hobbit since I was quite little (actually I think it was read to me) and don't remember what it says about trolls and sunlight, but I did read the LotR trilogy and the Silmarilion last summer.

    Trolls minds probably are more like golems, but I don't think all golems minds are equal. The Trolls in Mordor were probably more like Barnaxus before he was given life by Mulcarn. He was already said to be the best crafted and the most efficient of the golems, and would need some sort of intelligence (probably problem solving skills like a very advanced computer, not true sentience) in order for that to be the case. Troll intelligence was probably of the same kind. They wouldn't be capable of moral reasoning or of developing personal philosophies, but cold calculations and military tactics would not be beyond them.
     
  19. Aurore

    Aurore Chieftain

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    I am a woman and I love ffh2. I certainly did not notice any signs of misogyny. Sure some horrible things happen to women in the backstory but the men also get killed, tortured, betrayed as well.

    I personally love the fact that almost every faction has a female leader as an option, and they are part of the story rather than just an afterthought thrown in.

    There are many games I have problems with, but ffh2 wasn't one of them. I havent set out to read every backstory and compare the fate of the women as opposed to the men, but I have read quite a few. Mostly the impression I have is that this is a very harsh and very brutal world for both genders (or indeed anything capable of losing its life).

    Aurore
     
  20. jprc

    jprc My dog is smarter than me

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    well...
    It makes me realizing that we (I posted in the thread) spoke much about this, without asking a simple question: "What women think about it?"
    Hum!... (caugh) ... sorry .. again our "male" egocentrism thinking that we can ask the question AND answer it "on behalf"...
    Ooooops . :blush:
     
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