Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I cannot vouch for any option before we played almost 20 turns today, we need more map exloration to come up with a final solution.
Domestic Term 1, Discussion 1: Settlement Strategies
- Thread starter MOTH
- Start date
Provolution said:
I agree, if we are on a small island then we need a tight build to get enough cities to compete, while if we're on the edge of a pangaea then we can spread out a bit more.
MOTH
Emperor
Don't worry, I won't start polling until we have a bigger picture of the land. I'm personnally in favor of Ginger Ale's suggestion right now: Tight at the coast and loose inland.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
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Personally I think that city density must be a product of terrain and intended victory condition. Since we know neither it would be difficult to decide ATM. However, as with any democracy a compromise must be reached in light of the fact that the victory condition will doubtless not be known until settlement strategy must be decided.
I would advocate a city density of 13 tiles/city. 1 tile for each citizen before hospitals plus one for the centre. I would not increase the density in low food regions since the sites needed cannot include mountains and therefore higher density will reduce the number of citizen worked tiles, and reduce MM flexibility also. Changes of government and the advent of steam will allow cities to grow beyond size 12 and will bring in to play the "new" specialists for C3C.
It is widely known that densities lower than 12 to 13/city results in large numbers of core tiles that cannot be worked until sanitation and hospitals, and that an ICS (or approximation) is powerful only for military victories since the high number of cities and the maintenance costs associated with that plus the number of city centre tiles removing workable tiles from the map make this strategy poor from Steam onwards.
I would also be careful in placing cities on coastal tiles. Commercially it is a good thing, but shield prductivity *could* be compromised. It may also be necessary to build a large number of harbours with the associated maintenance costs making a bid for Smiths almost mandatory.
I would advocate a city density of 13 tiles/city. 1 tile for each citizen before hospitals plus one for the centre. I would not increase the density in low food regions since the sites needed cannot include mountains and therefore higher density will reduce the number of citizen worked tiles, and reduce MM flexibility also. Changes of government and the advent of steam will allow cities to grow beyond size 12 and will bring in to play the "new" specialists for C3C.
It is widely known that densities lower than 12 to 13/city results in large numbers of core tiles that cannot be worked until sanitation and hospitals, and that an ICS (or approximation) is powerful only for military victories since the high number of cities and the maintenance costs associated with that plus the number of city centre tiles removing workable tiles from the map make this strategy poor from Steam onwards.
I would also be careful in placing cities on coastal tiles. Commercially it is a good thing, but shield prductivity *could* be compromised. It may also be necessary to build a large number of harbours with the associated maintenance costs making a bid for Smiths almost mandatory.
MOTH
Emperor
Good Points M-B. And good to see you participating in the Demo Game.
MOTH
Emperor
Proposed Settlement Densities:
If I don't hear much more discussion I will begin polling these tonight so that the Director of Expansion has something to work with. The point next to the number is what will be stated in the poll option. The rest is a description. I've tried to make the options unbiased. I have left the names of the descriptive part also to avoid bias. I would welcome polling standards committee input on this possible poll.
Poll question:
What Settlement Density should we target during the general expansion phase?
Options:
1. Very Low density in High-food areas, low to medium density in low-food or coastal areas
2. Low Density. Allow for tile changes over the course of the game.
3. Medium to low Density, coastal caution.
4. Low to Medium inland. Medium to High density on the coast.
5. Medium Density using rough CxxC pattern.
6. Medium Density if fresh water, high density if not.
7. Other - Please include a post with what you want.
8. Abstain.
1st Post narrative:
We must decide as a nation what we want our settlement density to be during general expansion. At this point this is to cover the next 30-50 turns. During this time we should get between 4 and 8 additional settlers. Tactical discussions will include settlement order and site selection (dot maps).
Discussion can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113150
A map of our currently known territory is at the bottom of this post.
For the purposes of the poll please refer to the following definitions:
Very Low Density: Allowing the full 21 tiles per city.
Low Density: Anything allowing more than 14 (but less than 20) workable tiles per city.
Medium Density: Allowing between 8-13 workable tiles per city.
High Density: Allowing 7 or less tiles per city.
Options:
1. Very Low density in High-food areas, low to medium density in low-food or coastal areas
High food areas should have 20 tiles available. Low food areas (tundra, desert) should use overlapping tiles. Exceptions should be made in coastal areas to allow for some overlap..
2. Low Density. Allow for tile changes over the course of the game.
3. Medium to low Density, coastal caution.
13 tiles per city in all areas and be careful with initial coastal placement as they could make harbors necessary thus eating into the Seafaring commercial bonus.
4. Low to Medium inland. Medium to High density on the coast.
A tight build on the coast and a looser build inland with good terrain to maximize seafaring trait.
5. Medium Density using rough CxxC pattern.
Cities no closer than 3 tiles away from each other.
6. Medium Density if fresh water, high density if not.
13 Tiles to support 12 citizens if fresh water, 7 tiles to support 6 citizens if aqueduct needed.
7. Other - Please include a post with what you want.
8. Abstain.
Poll Interpretation: This will provide guidance to the Director of Expansion for use in the tactical discussions and decisions. The options are in a general spectrum from less dense to more dense. It is expected that the mean of the votes will be used in designing the tactical plans. If for some reason there is heavy support (25+%) on both ends of the spectrum then poll will be invalidated and discussions will be expanded before re-polling.
If I don't hear much more discussion I will begin polling these tonight so that the Director of Expansion has something to work with. The point next to the number is what will be stated in the poll option. The rest is a description. I've tried to make the options unbiased. I have left the names of the descriptive part also to avoid bias. I would welcome polling standards committee input on this possible poll.
Poll question:
What Settlement Density should we target during the general expansion phase?
Options:
1. Very Low density in High-food areas, low to medium density in low-food or coastal areas
2. Low Density. Allow for tile changes over the course of the game.
3. Medium to low Density, coastal caution.
4. Low to Medium inland. Medium to High density on the coast.
5. Medium Density using rough CxxC pattern.
6. Medium Density if fresh water, high density if not.
7. Other - Please include a post with what you want.
8. Abstain.
1st Post narrative:
We must decide as a nation what we want our settlement density to be during general expansion. At this point this is to cover the next 30-50 turns. During this time we should get between 4 and 8 additional settlers. Tactical discussions will include settlement order and site selection (dot maps).
Discussion can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113150
A map of our currently known territory is at the bottom of this post.
For the purposes of the poll please refer to the following definitions:
Very Low Density: Allowing the full 21 tiles per city.
Low Density: Anything allowing more than 14 (but less than 20) workable tiles per city.
Medium Density: Allowing between 8-13 workable tiles per city.
High Density: Allowing 7 or less tiles per city.
Options:
1. Very Low density in High-food areas, low to medium density in low-food or coastal areas
High food areas should have 20 tiles available. Low food areas (tundra, desert) should use overlapping tiles. Exceptions should be made in coastal areas to allow for some overlap..
2. Low Density. Allow for tile changes over the course of the game.
3. Medium to low Density, coastal caution.
13 tiles per city in all areas and be careful with initial coastal placement as they could make harbors necessary thus eating into the Seafaring commercial bonus.
4. Low to Medium inland. Medium to High density on the coast.
A tight build on the coast and a looser build inland with good terrain to maximize seafaring trait.
5. Medium Density using rough CxxC pattern.
Cities no closer than 3 tiles away from each other.
6. Medium Density if fresh water, high density if not.
13 Tiles to support 12 citizens if fresh water, 7 tiles to support 6 citizens if aqueduct needed.
7. Other - Please include a post with what you want.
8. Abstain.
Poll Interpretation: This will provide guidance to the Director of Expansion for use in the tactical discussions and decisions. The options are in a general spectrum from less dense to more dense. It is expected that the mean of the votes will be used in designing the tactical plans. If for some reason there is heavy support (25+%) on both ends of the spectrum then poll will be invalidated and discussions will be expanded before re-polling.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Excellent work MOTH 
You make me proud, esteemed Colleague.
I would surely go for Medium build. However, you should also as External Consul specify the following grand policies:
1. Settler escorts (Barbarians raging, plus Expansion controls escorts)
2. Opening territory for colonization, prioritize expansion zones in an order
3. City placement criteria per city, preference ladder
4. city improvement build policies
you already covered settlement pattern very well.
You make me proud, esteemed Colleague.
I would surely go for Medium build. However, you should also as External Consul specify the following grand policies:
1. Settler escorts (Barbarians raging, plus Expansion controls escorts)
2. Opening territory for colonization, prioritize expansion zones in an order
3. City placement criteria per city, preference ladder
4. city improvement build policies
you already covered settlement pattern very well.
There have been some comments asking what our victory condition is. Please participate in the initial discussion on victory condition.
Also, random barbs were selected, and given the lack of GH in the explored area there is a very strong possibility that there are NO barbs at all. We cannot count on this yet, just passing along what was seen in the game so far.
Also, random barbs were selected, and given the lack of GH in the explored area there is a very strong possibility that there are NO barbs at all. We cannot count on this yet, just passing along what was seen in the game so far.
MOTH
Emperor
Thanks Provolution,
I myself will be voting for #3, the Medium density with coastal caution.
BTW, I am Domestic Consul, not External. You points 1 and 2 are part of exploration and therefor part of Tim's area. There is some crossover in regards to number 2, which will be a separate thead asking how aggressively we should settle the Indian border. That will be a quicky for now as I have to go to a meeting soon.
Point 3 is being discussed in this thread and will be polled separately.
Point 4 is covered in a separate thread and will discuss targeted improvements for each city as we near founding them.
You missed out: Infrastructure Strategies and targets. This is in a separate discussion thread.
I myself will be voting for #3, the Medium density with coastal caution.
BTW, I am Domestic Consul, not External. You points 1 and 2 are part of exploration and therefor part of Tim's area. There is some crossover in regards to number 2, which will be a separate thead asking how aggressively we should settle the Indian border. That will be a quicky for now as I have to go to a meeting soon.
Point 3 is being discussed in this thread and will be polled separately.
Point 4 is covered in a separate thread and will discuss targeted improvements for each city as we near founding them.
You missed out: Infrastructure Strategies and targets. This is in a separate discussion thread.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Good point MOTH
I would actually have a Temperate Zone Strategy 4 and a Boreal Zone Strategy 3, you can basically make a East West Line where you divide this.
I would actually have a Temperate Zone Strategy 4 and a Boreal Zone Strategy 3, you can basically make a East West Line where you divide this.
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
Looks like some excellent land, but we have neighbors already. Are we going to build close in to start, or send initial settlers to try to gain as much ground between us and the AI early?
MOTH
Emperor
Settlement density has been set. The remaining settlement decisions info site criteria/priority. Settlement direction will be evolving and currently indicates an agressive build towards the Indian border.
Deeper topics that may be raised near the end of the term include: Should we start planning on a Palace move?
As for settlement Criteria and Priority, I put forward the following as criteria priorities:
1. Resouces:
Priority should be placed on securing bonus resources (strategic, luxury, food, then other).
2. Fresh Water Criteria:
1st Priority is on Hill sites that will allow us to pass irrigation to dry areas (only applies if we have hills/mountains blocking an irrigation path.)
2nd Priority is to choose sites location on rivers.
3rd Priority is to choose sites with access to Lakes.
3. Border expansion: choose sites that will complement existing cultural borders and limit gaps in which the AI could settle.
4. Inland sites that fit well with a density of 13 useable tiles.
5. Coastal sites that fit well with a density of 13 useable tiles.
All 5 criteria will need to be considered as settlement sites are proposed and selected.
Deeper topics that may be raised near the end of the term include: Should we start planning on a Palace move?
As for settlement Criteria and Priority, I put forward the following as criteria priorities:
1. Resouces:
Priority should be placed on securing bonus resources (strategic, luxury, food, then other).
2. Fresh Water Criteria:
1st Priority is on Hill sites that will allow us to pass irrigation to dry areas (only applies if we have hills/mountains blocking an irrigation path.)
2nd Priority is to choose sites location on rivers.
3rd Priority is to choose sites with access to Lakes.
3. Border expansion: choose sites that will complement existing cultural borders and limit gaps in which the AI could settle.
4. Inland sites that fit well with a density of 13 useable tiles.
5. Coastal sites that fit well with a density of 13 useable tiles.
All 5 criteria will need to be considered as settlement sites are proposed and selected.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Carefully observing the crowd, Provolution munches some mammoth beef, and trudges on with some promiscuos lady in mammoth pelt.
DaveShack's eyes just about pop out of their sockets... Under his breath he can be heard muttering "mammoth beef -- now where did he get that? And who is that with him? Do we have contact with another tribe that the people haven't been told about?"
TimBentley
Deity
Perhaps he's actually eating elephant meat (being trained for war once people are chivalrous enough to ride them?).
To keep it on topic, the strategy looks good. A palace move would reduce distance corruption in many cities, certainly. But more on that when we have more cities.
To keep it on topic, the strategy looks good. A palace move would reduce distance corruption in many cities, certainly. But more on that when we have more cities.
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