[GS] Domination, air combat, AI and the new era

[leandrombraz]

So, a new era is really cool, mostly considering how they are trying to make it really unique but lets face it, Civ VI as it's right now have a serious problem of being way too easy to steamroll and win early, really ridiculously early, mostly on domination but other victories aren't far from that. Usually in late game I'm not racing to win before the AI does, I'm racing against myself to see if I can do stuff I want to do before I win, like Tower Eiffel before I win cultural our build an airdrome and actually use air units before I win domination. The AI have a hard time with Air combat and Air units production but even if it didn't have such a problem, you just win way before the AI have a chance to even consider air combat. Basically, unless you hold yourself back on purpose or make a lot of bad decisions, the end comes long before that end game stuff can be used.

I love everything I'm seeing and this expansion looks amazing but what I'm really eager to see is if any of the new stuff and changes they made will make the AI a bit more competitive and hold the player back so we can enjoy the end game a bit more. Can the AI actually use congress to hold back a warmongering player and make us struggle a bit more? If we go full warmonger, will we miss on all that influence on the congress or gathering this new resource will be way too easy, even if you're kicking the AI left and right, like era points? Will mother nature get in our way, can a volcano or a tornado be a real game changer that might hold us back or even force a retreat?

Will the AI use Air units?

I'm not trying to be negative but we all know that once the novelty of the expansion is gone, this is what will ultimately matter. I still didn't get a dark era in R&F because it's way too easy to pile era points, so you can't get one unless you do it on purpose, you just can't. R&F is fun to play and I'm sure GS will also be really fun (7 tiles canal!!! \o/) but we are way too good at maximizing this mechanics to full benefits and the AI is way too bad at holding us back, even with help.

 

[Aristos]

I expect the new era to have geo-orbital units that the AI will not be able to use... the AI will also build canals between lakes, and for once, thanks to the AI, all the doomsday scenarios of Global Warming will come to fruition... in 1863!

Seriously though, too much for-the-hype content and mechanics, with no assurance whatsoever that the AI will be brought up to pair to deal with them... quite the opposite, the AI is not yet up to pair with vanilla (air units anyone?), let alone R&F... and now, in two months, will be able to manage with some credibility all those new mechanics??

Naahhh....

 

[Cagarustus]

I expect the new era to have geo-orbital units that the AI will not be able to use... the AI will also build canals between lakes, and for once, thanks to the AI, all the doomsday scenarios of Global Warming will come to fruition... in 1863!

Seriously though, too much for-the-hype content and mechanics, with no assurance whatsoever that the AI will be brought up to pair to deal with them... quite the opposite, the AI is not yet up to pair with vanilla (air units anyone?), let alone R&F... and now, in two months, will be able to manage with some credibility all those new mechanics??

Naahhh....

Then you can use your superior modding skills to tweak the AI behaviour as you want it!

 

[Human Crouton]

Then you can use your superior modding skills to tweak the AI behaviour as you want it!

Not without the DLL.

 

[RealAntithesis]

If this is going to be the last expansion, they should release the dll api along with it. It's now or never.

 

[AriochIV]

Will the AI use Air units?

My magic 8 ball says no. But it's often wrong.

The AI use of air units has been missing for a whole game and one expansion... which is pretty embarrassing. But they don't seem to be embarrassed, so I don't see any reason why they'd fix it.

 

[leandrombraz]

My magic 8 ball says no. But it's often wrong.

The AI use of air units has been missing for a whole game and one expansion... which is pretty embarrassing. But they don't seem to be embarrassed, so I don't see any reason why they'd fix it.

Next year they probably won't have anything else to release for Civ VI, so I assume they will be able to better focus on fixing stuff while they still working on it. I doubt it will ever be good but maybe we can get to a state where air combat isn't a dead feature.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

My magic 8 ball says no. But it's often wrong.

The AI use of air units has been missing for a whole game and one expansion... which is pretty embarrassing. But they don't seem to be embarrassed, so I don't see any reason why they'd fix it.

There's a high probability they would have mentioned it on the livestream yesterday, if they had put any effort into it. Not a guarantee, but a high likelihood.

The development team purposefully played England, to show off to English fans that they were trying to address their concerns about that civ. They made a point of showing the Production Queue, to throw a bone to people who've been asking for that. They mentioned the Hall of Fame, another big ask from a large component of fans.

By contrast, the silence on the competitiveness of the AI, and on air combat, suggests that the new expansion has nothing to offer players who care about those matters. Maybe they're saving it for a future announcement, but I suspect not.

 

[eleven11]

It may just simply be something they don't want to outright promise because the competency of the AI has some subjective aspects to it. So if they promise to improve the AI, half may end up agreeing that they did while the other half may say it still sucks.

Edit: Holding out hope that it is greatly improved

 

[Disgustipated]

Just stretching out the game could allow us to see more air units. But still unlikely the AI will use them properly. But maybe they will address that.

My main concern is how fast you can go up through the tech/civic trees once you start taking out more than 2 civs. I actually feel like there needs to be a hard cap limit on how fast you can tech. I believe Civ4 had this? If you have half the cities in the world, you will just scream through the tech and civics trees.

 

[Aristos]

Then you can use your superior modding skills to tweak the AI behaviour as you want it!

First, not without the dll source code...

Second, are you going to pay me 40 US$ for the improved AI?

 

[Aristos]

There's a high probability they would have mentioned it on the livestream yesterday, if they had put any effort into it. Not a guarantee, but a high likelihood.

The development team purposefully played England, to show off to English fans that they were trying to address their concerns about that civ. They made a point of showing the Production Queue, to throw a bone to people who've been asking for that. They mentioned the Hall of Fame, another big ask from a large component of fans.

By contrast, the silence on the competitiveness of the AI, and on air combat, suggests that the new expansion has nothing to offer players who care about those matters. Maybe they're saving it for a future announcement, but I suspect not.

If you look closely, the "puzzle model" is being increased with the expansion. They think that with the "puzzle model" they can avoid working on a better AI, because they think us fools that will be satisfied with solving the land/district/improvements puzzle as a substitute for an acceptable AI opponent. Almost everything they are adding enriches said model, and creates a sort of fake challenge for the player (where do I put this district now? when? surrounded by what?). Granted, it is fun for a while the same way a good puzzle is fun (one time), but then what? What does it matter if you perfected your city and districts layouts if the AI is building the Ruhr Valley in a city without a single hill (just saw it happening)?

They seem to think that builders within the franchise (I consider myself one of them) will be satisfied with just building; I don't know you, but my "builder inside" wants to OUTBUILD the competition, not just build in an isolated way... I want to feel that I outsmarted the AI with its bonuses with careful planning, not that I am playing alone and the whole fun comes from building the perfect city.

For that, I would play Cities:Skylines.

 

[Bechhold]

Unfortunately it seems we will have to wait till either Firaxis hires a AI programmer of some sort, or they at least work till the AI can manage to use Aircraft units maybe even throw a Carrier into the mix. Probably in a couple of sequels from now.

 

[Victoria]

How about just getting ship combat competent?

 

[Cagarustus]

First, not without the dll source code...

Second, are you going to pay me 40 US$ for the improved AI?

If Fireaxis offered a DLC for $40 that just focuses solely on AI improvements, would you buy it?

 

[Aristos]

If Fireaxis offered a DLC for $40 that just focuses solely on AI improvements, would you buy it?

If it is real, and the improvements are very noticeable and provide a real challenge, probably... but my point was this: AI improvements should have been part of at least every major expansion, and they were not... they should be part of the 40$ new xpack, and everything points to it being ignored. Why should I work for free to fill in the huge emptiness regarding AI when they are charging for it and not delivering?

 

[Aristos]

How about just getting ship combat competent?

ANY combat competent.

 

[bonafide11]

It seems like at first, we were all super excited about the expansion and all the new features it promised. Then after thinking about it for a couple days, we've realized that the AI isn't competent enough to handle the current game yet so why would they be able to handle all these new features? I think we'll probably see a dramatically improved AI maybe next summer or so, several months after the game has come out.

 

[acluewithout]

There's a high probability they would have mentioned it on the livestream yesterday, if they had put any effort into it. Not a guarantee, but a high likelihood.

The development team purposefully played England, to show off to English fans that they were trying to address their concerns about that civ. They made a point of showing the Production Queue, to throw a bone to people who've been asking for that. They mentioned the Hall of Fame, another big ask from a large component of fans.

By contrast, the silence on the competitiveness of the AI, and on air combat, suggests that the new expansion has nothing to offer players who care about those matters. Maybe they're saving it for a future announcement, but I suspect not.

See, I actually read all this as positive re AI and air combat.

FXS are giving every indication they actually read these and other forums and want to address player concerns. I think it’s likely they will try to improve the AI, albeit I don’t know on what time scale.

I’d say give them the benefit of the doubt.

How about just getting ship combat competent?

Yes!

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

If Fireaxis offered a DLC for $40 that just focuses solely on AI improvements, would you buy it?

I would.