Doto [AdvCiv ModMod]

[<Nexus>]

i wasted unbelievable amount of time on this "simple thing" and ive written mountain of code everywhere.
but, had to make it work.
simple things, can come with a world of code.

I just wonder what will you do if/when you really merge History Rewritten. Its Tenets are actually Civics on a different screen

 

[keldath]

hey folks,

thank you for the kind words, really made me glad.

@Drakarska
it not released yet (1.15).
i have some more stuff i wish to refine . soon i hope.

@<Nexus>
well, the tenets is what inspired me to create 2 civics screens

 

[<Nexus>]

Hi again!

So what are you up to these days?
Civ7? HR merge? Something else?

 

[keldath]

Hi mate,

Well, i mostly play Warhammer ttw 3.
Which i love.

Civ for now im not going around it.
C7, maybe in a year, if the take out era and civ stuff...

You?

 

[<Nexus>]

You?

Work. Life
...and in the little time left: Natural Wonders.

BTW, if you have some time could you please take a look at THIS? I want to fix Movement Limits in CoM but afraid of doing it wrong.
I know I have to backup the files for worst case but I'm scared even to start this without someone experienced saying: "It looks okay."

 

[keldath]

Will try to take a look soon

 

[<Nexus>]

Will try to take a look so

It's okay, no hurry

 

[keldath]

hi folks,

i keep seeing some downloads of Doto.
currently 483 for the current version.
although i strayed form civ, im thinking of picking up on where i left off here.

do i still have active players?
if you see this, please shout out.
maybe even some feedback i can use...

cheers friends

 

[keldath]

Refined my civic / government screens.
gonna do the Gov one with horizontal scroll, for text room.

 

[why7at]

Thank you for continuing to update the great mod

I heard that you have implemented a 'city-state' system in this mode, is that true?

Can you tell me how it works? I'm really curious! There is a city-state in Civilization 4!

I used a translator

 

[keldath]

Hi hi,
Makes me very happy to know theres still a few who are here to play doto.

@why7at
Hi and welcome and thank you.
I have indeed created a fully fledged city state system which went on well.
But,
I decided to, remove it as i did not get much feedback and sonce then i decided to clean some parts.
Im my current 1.15 dev .

But, if you wanna try it out,
Go ahead and download doto 1.14 i think,which has it in.

Would love to here what you think.
Here you can read about its features:

Post in thread 'Doto [AdvCiv ModMod]'

Apr 26, 2022

Doto 110 Beta Release !

as Promised,
i give you my new Doto version.

includes:
City states
Advanced Civ 1.06 version
and many code fixes and balance stuff.

as usual ,
i dont do much logging of my version....sorry.

for the city states ill write down a clear rule doc.
meanwhile:

City states can be tweaked and changed in the GlobalDefinesAlt.xml at the bottom of it.
there are explanations per parameter.

- city states will be randomly spawned at turn 1 (only Ancient era).
- cannot grow beyond culture defined limit (parameter).
- cannot grow under defined culture limit (parameter).
-...

• keldath

• 

 

[keldath]

Btw,
I wrote some ideas for some tatical changes for combat.
I ran the ideas through ai . Considers ai implementation and impact.
I got something really interesting that can potentially, help with stacks of doom.

 

[<Nexus>]

Btw,
I wrote some ideas for some tatical changes for combat.
I ran the ideas through ai . Considers ai implementation and impact.
I got something really interesting that can potentially, help with stacks of doom.

Got me curious

 

[keldath]

well here is a doc i made with some final suggestions from many ideas and composition i suggested:

Spoiler doc :

Mod Design Document: Countering the "Stack of Doom" (SOD) in Civ4

​

This document summarizes the analysis and concludes with a set of three synergistic combat mechanics designed to eliminate the Stack of Doom (SOD) exploit while maximizing AI compatibility and tactical depth.

---

I. Core Design Philosophy​

The primary objective is to solve the SOD problem by limiting its offensive actions and forcing unit dispersion rather than attempting to rewrite the core unit movement or positioning logic (which poses the highest risk of AI failure and OOS errors).
The design prioritizes:

1. Ease of AI Teaching: Mechanics must rely on simple, predictable numerical checks ( ) rather than complex pathfinding or spatial reasoning.
2. High Tactical Impact: Every action taken by the player or AI must have a clear, measurable effect on the battlefield.
3. Deterministic MP: The rules must be host-ordered and globally synced to prevent Out-of-Sync (OOS) errors in multiplayer.

Analyzed Risk (High Complexity/Low AI Feasibility)	Rationale for Exclusion
Unit Per Tile Limit	Requires a massive rewrite of the core engine; the AI struggles with managing multi-tile formations.
Route Wounded Units	Creates complex pathing issues for the AI (determining the "nearest city") and can feel arbitrary to the player.

---

II. The Recommended 3-Part Synergy​

The most effective approach is a combination of three rules that function as a Strategic Limiter, a Tactical Capper, and a Dynamic Disperser.

1. Global Logistics / War Supply (The Strategic Limiter

)​

This mechanic restricts the maximum number of attacks a player can execute across the entire map during a single turn, preventing a single SOD from wiping out multiple tiles or stacks.

• Mechanism: Introduce a global player resource: Logistics Points (LP) (max 15–20).
• Action: Every offensive attack (excluding siege/collateral actions) consumes 1 LP.
• Result: When a player's LP reaches zero, all offensive actions cease for that turn. LP regenerate based on infrastructure and city connections.
• AI Advantage: The AI already performs a cost/benefit analysis for attacks. This simply adds a new variable to prioritize: it will execute its highest-value attacks first until LP are depleted, making it a smarter attacker overall.

2. Tile Specific Attack Limit (The Tactical Capper

)​

This rule prevents the concentration of all force against a single point, forcing attackers to spread their forces for a siege.

• Mechanism: A variable counter is added to the class: .
• Limit: Attacks against any unit on that tile are capped (e.g., per turn).
  • Open Terrain:
  • Rough/Hills:
  • Fort/City:
• AI Advantage: Forces the AI to spread its offensive stack across adjacent tiles to maintain the attack rate, encouraging a more realistic, dispersed siege formation.

3. Unit Push Back (The Dynamic Disperser

)​

This mechanic gives the defender an active tool to break up an attack and waste the attacker's limited Logistics Points.

• Mechanism: When a Ranged Unit (e.g., Archer, Cannon) successfully wins or deals sufficient damage in combat, the entire defending stack is Pushed Back or tiles away from the attacker.
• Impact: The pushed-back units are forced to end their turn in the new tile, disrupting the attacker's line.
• AI Advantage: The defensive AI will now prioritize Ranged Units not just for collateral damage, but as crowd-control tools to force the enemy stack back and waste their subsequent turn reforming the assault.

---

III. Conclusion: Complexity and Reliability​

This combined system provides a cohesive and powerful fix for the SOD while remaining relatively accessible within the Civ4 SDK environment.

Criteria	Assessment
Implementation Complexity	Manageable. The core code changes are focused on simple conditional checks and new variables on the (LP) and (Attack Limit) classes.
AI Engagement	High. The AI is guided by predictable, numerical constraints, which it can easily integrate into its existing attack priority logic. It is forced into using smarter attack patterns (spreading forces) and smarter defensive unit selection (ranged units).
Multiplayer (MP) / OOS	Reliable. The Tile Attack Limit counter must be synchronized instantly and managed by the Host. Since all combat in simultaneous turns is already resolved in the order received by the host, the mechanics are deterministic and will not cause OOS, though players with lower latency will gain a slight edge in the "attack race."

The synergy turns the battlefield into a dynamic contest of logistics and positioning, shifting the focus away from simply stacking the largest military force.

more mechanics:

Spoiler doc2 :

Civ4 Mod: Stack of Doom Counter-Mechanics Summary​

This document summarizes the analysis of proposed mechanics and presents the optimal combinations for integrating a Stack of Doom (SOD) countermeasure into a Civ4 mod, balancing AI teachability, tactical impact, and implementation complexity.

---

I. Analysis Summary of Proposed Mechanics​

The analysis focused on three key areas: limiting stack actions, dispersing stacks, and AI integration difficulty.

Mechanic	Type	AI Difficulty	Tactical Impact	Implementation Complexity	Conclusion
Global Morale/War Supply (Logistics Points)	Limiter	Medium	High (Strategic)	Medium	Excellent global check. Forces strategic prioritization of attacks.
Tile Specific Attack Limit	Capper	Low to Medium	High (Tactical)	High (Requires CvPlot modification)	Excellent local check. Forces attackers to disperse forces for sieges.
Unit Push Back (Ranged Attackers)	Disperser	Low	High (Dynamic)	Low to Medium	Excellent defensive tool. Disrupts enemy formation post-combat.
Route Units (on Wounding)	Disperser	Medium	Moderate	Medium	Complex AI pathing required (routing to cities). Better methods exist.
Unit Per Tile Limit	Limiter/Disperser	Highest	Highest	Very High (Core Engine)	Too risky for OOS and AI; fundamentally breaks the Civ4 model.
Limit Units by Resource/Pop	Limiter	High	High (Strategic)	High (Requires major AI production changes)	Effective, but significantly harder to teach the AI than Logistics Points.

---

II. Recommended Mechanic Combinations​

Based on the analysis, three combinations are proposed, ranging from the safest, high-impact two-mechanic set to a comprehensive three-mechanic system.

Option 1: The Balanced, High-Impact Duo

​

This is the most reliable and AI-friendly option, focusing on simple numerical limits that are easy for the AI to process.

Mechanic	Role	Rationale
1. Global Morale/War Supply (Logistics Points)	Strategic Limiter	Prevents one player from making 50 attacks in a turn. AI prioritizes attacks based on value.
2. Tile Specific Attack Limit (Focused Fire)	Tactical Capper	Prevents a smaller number of attacks (from the LP) from all hitting one unit. Forces the SOD to spread out to surround targets.

Conclusion: This pair addresses the core problem (too many attacks, too much concentration) without introducing complex movement rules, offering a powerful, stable solution.

---

Option 2: The Comprehensive, Dynamic Trio

​

This option adds the Push Back mechanic to the reliable duo, creating a dynamic battleground where the defender has an active tool for counter-play.

Mechanic	Role	Rationale
1. Global Morale/War Supply	Strategic Limiter	Limits overall offensive actions (e.g., max 15 attacks per turn).
2. Tile Specific Attack Limit	Tactical Capper	Limits focused attacks on one tile (e.g., max 4 attacks per turn).
3. Unit Push Back (Ranged Attackers)	Dynamic Disperser	The defender’s ranged unit successfully hits, Pushing the limited attacking stack 1-2 tiles back, wasting the attacker's next turn reforming.

Conclusion: This is the most robust system as it forces the attacker to manage resources (LP) and spread forces (Tile Limit), while giving the defender the ability to actively disrupt the attack (Push Back). The Push Back feature's impact is high while its AI complexity is low (a simple post-combat movement command).

---

Option 3: The Simplest, Focus-on-Defense Single Mechanic

​

If modding time is extremely limited, focusing on the most effective local countermeasure is the safest route.

Mechanic	Role	Rationale
1. Tile Specific Attack Limit (Focused Fire)	Sole Capper	This single rule fundamentally breaks the SOD's ability to kill a defender in one turn, regardless of stack size. A 50-unit stack can only execute 4 attacks, giving the defender a guaranteed chance to counter or reinforce on the next turn.

Conclusion: While not as complete as the other options, this is the safest starting point for high-impact tactical change, as it directly restricts the SOD's defining feature: overwhelming, concentrated force.

 

[<Nexus>]

I read doc1 but not (yet) doc2.
It's an AI suggestion, right? I'm curious what other coders would say about it. Would it really help and do what Chatgpt came says?

But reading it gave me a very simple idea:
How about instead of a 'Unit per Tile Limit' rather an 'Attack from Rule Limit'?
So so you can still move around a SoD but only a limited number of units can attack from each tile each turn. The ones above the limit simply have to move to a new tile and if they still have movement they can continue to attack.
Maybe this could also fix 'Surround and Destroy' modcomp for AI use as well.

 

[keldath]

Hey ,
UPT,
Is less feasible for civ4 imo.
The core mechanics of civ4 is no limit tile movement.
It rewriting the game.
They barely pulled it in tye newer civs...

Aatack per tile, force movement, waste of more time, more time for a defender to act.
Attacker has to spread the units.

With push back attack, chance of ranged units to push wounded enemy units a tile ir 2 back. Also buys time for a defender. Forces more tactical combat.
Its like ranged attack opposit.
I tried ranged attack,similar to realism invictus, ai code is embeded deep. I didnt fully like how the ai did stuff.
Push back keeps on the civ core of combat and adfing a tactical effect.

All to prevent SOD from snowballing.


Read doc 2, about the global attack limit,i like that two.

I fed gemini with a layout of my ideas.

 

[keldath]