fe3333au
Deity
agreed 
Doughnut Files Term 7 - 9
- Thread starter fe3333au
- Start date
I wonder if we should post an official Condemnation in the UN?
If we post a blustery letter in the UN, decrying the DNUT invasion of TNT towns, we might benefit in two ways.
1. We clearly show to TNT that we are quite upset about the whole matter
2. KISS and TNT will be less likely to see our true intentions towards DNUTs.
Of course we'd have to let DNUTs know, in a secret communique, that the letter is more for TNT's ears than anything else.
Thoughts?
If we post a blustery letter in the UN, decrying the DNUT invasion of TNT towns, we might benefit in two ways.
1. We clearly show to TNT that we are quite upset about the whole matter
2. KISS and TNT will be less likely to see our true intentions towards DNUTs.
Of course we'd have to let DNUTs know, in a secret communique, that the letter is more for TNT's ears than anything else.
Thoughts?
fe3333au
Deity
Interesting idea ...
But would it not also send a clear message to Nut's that we have alterior motives and have our own uses for TNT?
and until we have chatted with Robi_D whom I trust (well sort of
) I also suspect that Nut's may have leaked confidences to KISS.
But would it not also send a clear message to Nut's that we have alterior motives and have our own uses for TNT?
and until we have chatted with Robi_D whom I trust (well sort of
) I also suspect that Nut's may have leaked confidences to KISS.
What do you mean? You suspect that DNUT have let KISS know things we didn't want leaked? What things?
fe3333au
Deity
just Whomp's comment ... about knowing stuff and that infuriating if only you knew what we do comment.
This may be totally related to TNT chat slips, but Nuts have been very clever in the past with playing teams against each other. They may have passed on recent correspondence.
This may be totally related to TNT chat slips, but Nuts have been very clever in the past with playing teams against each other. They may have passed on recent correspondence.
I wouldn't get too worked up over Whomp's comment. After all, though he may be friendly and a nice guy, he is nonetheless an influential member of a team that is playing to win.
Actually, his comment seems like a pretty clever insertion designed to get MIA thinking the worst. I wouldn't worry too much. The unknown is much more fearful than the actuality.
Actually, his comment seems like a pretty clever insertion designed to get MIA thinking the worst. I wouldn't worry too much. The unknown is much more fearful than the actuality.
fe3333au
Deity
@ Peter ... I should relax shouldn't I 
Anyway contact with Robi_D and laying foundations
I had a grave fear that TNT were ready to pounce on our silky place ... but no![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Anyway contact with Robi_D and laying foundations
RobiD77: hi fe
fe3333au: hey mr editor
RobiD77: i glad a caught you, i have to go out of town for a few days :-(
fe3333au: not holiday then
RobiD77: i wish
fe3333au: where going?
RobiD77: melbourne
fe3333au: not too bad ... but cold for you desert people
RobiD77: hehe, it cold here so it wont be too big a deal
To Business
RobiD77: so as you can gather from our letter we will be open for tech trading soon so we are interested to know what the possiblities are
fe3333au: yep and we are indeed interested, very interested and are compiling a letter
RobiD77: ok sounds good
fe3333au: we got 10 turns to Nut (excuse the pun) something out correct?
RobiD77: pretty much ... its based on when we finish researching the tech rather than a set turn number
Digging Time ... Research
fe3333au: what is the tech?
RobiD77: i believe its education but dont quote me, i have viewed the save for a few turns
fe3333au: cool ... what you getting?
RobiD77: we already got it, invention if i'm not mistaken
fe3333au: oh I see ... so KISS just waiting for you and then you both go separate ways
RobiD77: as far as the tech trades go yes, but the non agression treaty is still in place for around another 23 turns
fe3333au: ours end in 166
RobiD77: so its roughly the same amount of time
fe3333au: interesting isn't it
RobiD77: i guess it could be, have to wait and see what happens
TNT will be history
RobiD77: Once tnt is out of the way it should make life interesting with odd numbers and all
fe3333au: yes ... so you guys are going for it I guess
RobiD77: tnt?
fe3333au: yes
RobiD77: that was the decision, personally i didn't see the need to rush but that democracy for you
Official Secrecy Act
fe3333au: lol ... speaking of democracy, I trust that our recent correspondence has been kept secret from KISS
RobiD77: yes as always all one on one talk is confidential
fe3333au: that includes official correspondence?
RobiD77: yes
RobiD77: by one on one i ment in the team sense, but individual too
fe3333au: cool
<I believe him>
More on potential treaty ... and a bit of nudge nudge wink wink
fe3333au: I would like to see KISS reaction to us entering into reaserch agreement because it would be essential to agree not to trade on ... they are big advantage atm
RobiD77: i don't believe its that big, in the sense it can't be undone
fe3333au: undone by 2 teams working together?
RobiD77: i think you guys could do it by yourself, for us it would be more difficult since we are behind the 8 ball, but 2 teams working together could
fe3333au: even if it led to non peacefull action?
RobiD77: well personally i dont see the game ending peacefully, sure it may come to a space race but i there will be definately wars inbetween
fe3333au: yes I tend to agree
RobiD77: but its more straight forward for you and KISS
fe3333au: just thinking out aloud btw
RobiD77: yep
fe3333au: and yes I think it is between us and KISS ... maybe comming in second is a good thing though
RobiD77: well we could look at it that way, especially since it wasn't that long ago that 3rd was looking highly unlikely, but we might as well try, no point settling, i mean you and KISS could do us a big favour and go at it for about 60 turns so wee can catch up
Inevitable Donsig
RobiD77: mind you donsig didnt help his own cause
fe3333au: LOL ... Don't mention him ... still angry ... and his little yap yap on the UN
RobiD77: hehe, i'm sad he left
fe3333au: They are a strange bunch of crazy kids
RobiD77: well i believe he did the wrong thing leaving the way he did, if he was sick of the game he could have given his team a few turns to find someone
fe3333au: or contact administrators
RobiD77: but i'll miss him because he was so easy to fight :-D
fe3333au: we will probably never experience the fun of bashing TNT
RobiD77: he could have left earlier but HE wanted to continue
fe3333au: too late for us to join the fun
RobiD77: its never to late ... that would just be icing on the cake ;-)
On that topic
fe3333au: so if we decided to join in on the fun ... you wouldn't see it as aggressive if we ended up with some cities on your continent?
RobiD77: its on tnt's side for one and one or two cities compared to our 18 isn't exactly frightening
fe3333au: true ... interesting thought but it will take time to get there
<Nut secure feeling>
RobiD77: plus we know you can't commit to much because you have someone to deal with on your side
fe3333au: Now that is a truism sir
RobiD77: at the very least send a warroir and bring some popcorn
fe3333au: we got a boat up near the KISS action ... but everyone either dead or huddled behind walls
RobiD77: hehe, yeah i believe they are lauching there second wave soon
fe3333au: extinction immenant
I love war stories
RobiD77: i don't know how it looks up north but we grabbed two jungle cities and have the third surrounded
fe3333au: near the KISS area?
RobiD77: no they are much further north then were we are ... the fact is tnt could bunker down for quite a while if they play it right
fe3333au: well KISS got another 6 Golden age turns left
RobiD77: yeah but the middle 4 cities will be hard to beat, but again that depends on how tnt play it
fe3333au: yes
KISS mentioned Nuts not good research partners
fe3333au: so how is your ability to research?
RobiD77: its getting better, we are keeping up with KISS pretty much, the gap you see now is mostly due to our poor research at the beginning of the agreement ... i would have liked to have waited for the war at least another 20 turns to get the research right up there, but like i said i was in the minority
fe3333au: understand
RobiD77: but most of our early cities are well developed and the others are starting to get some infrastructure so our reseach will be good if not world beating
Explaining our stance in previous letter
fe3333au: We would have prefered you not accelerating the process and have KISS exhaust themselves against TNT ... but we totally understand ... regarding TNT extinction
RobiD77: well i don't believe we sped it up as such since the jungle cities are fairly detached from the main group, and personally given our limited resources our attack wont help KISS to much, but you didn't here me say that
fe3333au: lol ... understand
RobiD77: that just personal opinon of course
fe3333au: yes understand
What is the doomed city mentioned ... crossing fingers not Silky
RobiD77: but the way i see it our army is only good enough to take poorly defended outlying towns ... a by product of my days in charge
fe3333au: so what is the city you are about to take?
RobiD77: 1 pike vs 4 MW's ... 1 reg pike vs 3 vet and 1 elite MW to be exact
<Try again ... toes crossed now>
fe3333au: so next turn you get another city unless they burn it
RobiD77: they'll probably burn it just to spite us
fe3333au: important city to them?
RobiD77: they didn't get a chance with the other 2
fe3333au: blitz kreig LOL
RobiD77: no, it was a conection to their 2 southern cities but they are ours now
<Praise Meleet>
RobiD77: yeah a quick hit and run ... again a by product of my term
fe3333au: well even a mosquito bite is irritating LOL
RobiD77: hehe
fe3333au: but in this case I think they forgot to inocculate against Malaria
<Me Happy Boy Now>
Everyone confused as to TNT play style
RobiD77: well that comes down to donsigs puzzleing tactics ... and the way we countered them
fe3333au: says something about whole team though .. can't wait for game to finish I will take my time trolling through all the team's forums
RobiD77: tnt's will be interesting, especally what possesed them to attack us ... the way they did
Many Interesting perspectives on past events
fe3333au: and for you guys to see the different take on us giving TNT techs in Ancient Age
RobiD77: hehe
fe3333au: am I corect that KISS gave you their views on that scenario?
RobiD77: no not really unless you count, hi guys, we are now the only 2 AA civs, so it might be a good idea to organise some trades
fe3333au: LOL
RobiD77: they were not amused
fe3333au: I must be too paranoid
RobiD77: weren't argry either ... worried would be the best way to describe it
fe3333au: hmmm ... well they were angry at us ... almost went to war over that one LOL ... but sanity prevailed
RobiD77: i wish i could say the same about our northerners
fe3333au: they were crazy ... maybe bad water up there
RobiD77: you know what i think pissed off our team the most
fe3333au: what
RobiD77: i would say most of us are over the fact they tried to stick the dagger in, but its the complete lack of respect they showed us, they seriously though they would drop a couple of immos by and wipe us out,
fe3333au: no words
RobiD77: and the arrogant peace demands are still are sore point too
fe3333au: was that Donsig?
RobiD77: well he was the mouth piece but i doubt it was him alone in deciding what to do
fe3333au: greekguy is in charge isn't he?
RobiD77: atm i'm not sure, we will see if they try any communication ... i know strider played the turn
fe3333au: yes I'm glad they rallied
RobiD77: i didn't doubt they would find someone, it was just the fact donsig picked up his bat and ball and went home without warning ... maybe it was the way we declared war that sent him over the top
fe3333au: LOL he may be in therapy as we speak ...
Robi our Official Nut contact ??
fe3333au: so are you Foreign Minister for Nuts?
RobiD77: acting until nobody returns or elections come around which are in about 9 turns
Nut's Official Declaration on TNT
RobiD77: actually the message was my idea, although i only suggested it as a joke at the time ... would you like to hear it
fe3333au: yes please
RobiD77: roses are red
RobiD77: violets are blue
RobiD77: we are declaring war
RobiD77: to destroy you
RobiD77:
fe3333au: ROTFL ... in fact I started laughing at we declare war
RobiD77: i trully wish i could have seen the look on donsigs face when he opened it
Save getting debugged
fe3333au: actually this break has been good since Ainsley is fixing the save
RobiD77: do you know whats wrong with it, i mean specifacally
<didn't mention Espionage screen>
fe3333au: CivAssistII won't work ... started when g-mail auto zipped the saves
RobiD77: oh well i hope it doesn't take too long to fix, considering the enforced break due to donsig ... hmmm i don't think that happened to us
fe3333au: we just waiting for the word and will send the save on
RobiD77: no probs
Rest of Nuts eager for treaty?
fe3333au: so I assume your team is in favour of us entering into an agreement
RobiD77: yeah, but then being behind we can't really go without one ;-) ... seriously if we can find agreeable terms for both team then we are more than happy to proceed with one
fe3333au: I hear you buddy boy ... any reason KISS have ceased being as friendly?
RobiD77: they are still friendly, it just that the reason for the agreement in the first place isn't really an issue anymore, for either of us, for different reasons
fe3333au: understand ... so when are you back so we can maybe cement something?
RobiD77: i will be gone for about 3 days. I will be able to check in on the forums just not as regularly ... tues to fri
fe3333au: we can use lay down some foundations before your agreement is over
RobiD77: sure, its ending, so i don't see why we can't get a head start ... I'm sure KISS has probably sent a letter feeling out the possiblities already
fe3333au: honestly ... not with us
RobiD77: you dont have to tell me
fe3333au: I already did ... but we have confirmed peace for long time ... so they probably feeding the pigeons ready to send us correspondence soon ... all the more reason to cement something I think
RobiD77: odd number diplomacy is always fun
fe3333au: diplomacy full stop ... and i must grugingly admit you got us a couple times
RobiD77: hmmm really on what? mind you my mind isn't at top gear at the moment
fe3333au: I can't remember details either atm ... just keeping personal score
<Other stuff Oz related ... then cya>
I had a grave fear that TNT were ready to pounce on our silky place ... but no
I read this as an indication that Mezzonotte Keep is already gone. Someone could open the save to have a look, I suppose.
I can't check the save right now, but I'm pretty sure the Keep is still TNT's - I hope I would have noticed that . TNT had towns on the eastern coast pretty far south - I think Dnuts are talking about that half on the island. And TNT lost their gems also which should confirm that.
. TNT had towns on the eastern coast pretty far south - I think Dnuts are talking about that half on the island. And TNT lost their gems also which should confirm that.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Great chat Fe!!
Some very wonderful intel in there!
We can edit the letter based on that…. (and I'm glad you mostly liked my start)
I think we may want to get this deal signed before the Nutters get Education. As soon as they have Education, they will find out that we also have Astronomy and Banking.
We want them to be afraid of KISS getting a domination win… not afraid of us running away with the Science game.
Anyway – based on your chat, here's a revised version of my letter…
EDIT: P.S. I have looked at the save and can confirm Mezzonite Keep is still TNTs.
Some very wonderful intel in there!
We can edit the letter based on that…. (and I'm glad you mostly liked my start)
I think we may want to get this deal signed before the Nutters get Education. As soon as they have Education, they will find out that we also have Astronomy and Banking.
We want them to be afraid of KISS getting a domination win… not afraid of us running away with the Science game.
Anyway – based on your chat, here's a revised version of my letter…
Dear RobiD and all Doughnutians,
Thank you for you letter and following chat.
We would like to officially express our dismay that you have found it necessary to attack TNT. We are still worried this will ultimately aid KISS in their domination quest… but all of our decisions haven’t exactly been popular with you either. So I suppose we’re even!
From the save, it appears your opening attack was quite a success. Well done.
We urge you to make peace – if you can broker a deal with the Iron-heads.
Now let us talk of the future.
We are very interested in building a closer alliance with you.
We are envisioning something along the lines of, say, a 40 turn peace deal that extends indefinitely past the 40th turn with a 10-turn cancellation notice clause. Combined with this peace deal we would like to make a tech-swapping arrangement. You’ll find that MIA is in a position to be a very helpful trading partner.
We hope we can even get the foundations for this tech deal laid in place even before your agreement with KISS expires.
So what do you propose for a tech swap?
We already have Education – as you are probably aware - and just acquired Invention.
(Optional, but necessary I think: We also expect to be done, or near done with researching gunpowder in the next 10 turns.)
We’re eager to hear what you think of combining a tech deal with a peace treaty – and what terms both deals should have.
These are dark days in which the specter of KISS domination hangs over the whole world. We're sure you are even more aware of this, now that you share your continent with an expanding KISS settlement and KISS army.
The Doughnuts and the MIA must look to each other in brotherhood to stand against the gathering dark.
We look forward to hearing from you soon.
Your brothers across the sea,
MIA
EDIT: P.S. I have looked at the save and can confirm Mezzonite Keep is still TNTs.
fe3333au
Deity
Silk city is still there.
I think we should suggest tech buying/selling instead of asking them what they propose for tech trading. There is no tech trading regime that will work between us since we are already ahead, and we can research much faster. I don't have time to write a flowery letter right now (General_W is better at that anyway), but here is the upshot:
fe3333au
Deity
We got time to hammer something mutualy beneficial as Robi is away on business until end of week
I really like that idea - DNUTs send cash, we research at the 4 turn minumum. There's no way KISS could match us (even without partnering with DNUT).
The tough part of the sale is excluding KISS. I suppose that a trade with KISS is okay once a certain number of turns has passed after we've got the tech (20?)
The thing to guard against is the possibility of either KISS or DNUT grabbing Theory of Evolution, but that shouldn't be too tough.
The tough part of the sale is excluding KISS. I suppose that a trade with KISS is okay once a certain number of turns has passed after we've got the tech (20?)
The thing to guard against is the possibility of either KISS or DNUT grabbing Theory of Evolution, but that shouldn't be too tough.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Allright… we're really cooking now.
I also really love the "MIA does science and Dnut's pay us for it" plan.
Here's version 3 for everyone to kick around…
I also really love the "MIA does science and Dnut's pay us for it" plan.
Here's version 3 for everyone to kick around…
Dear RobiD and all Doughnutians,
Thank you for you letter and following chat.
We would like to officially express our dismay that you have found it necessary to attack TNT. We are still worried this will ultimately aid KISS in their domination quest… but all of MIA's decisions haven’t exactly been popular with you either. So I suppose we’re even!
From the save, it appears your opening attack was quite a success. Well done.
We urge you to make peace – if you can broker a deal with the Iron-heads.
Now let us talk of the future.
We are very interested in building a closer alliance with you – based on peace and trade.
Peace:
We are envisioning something along the lines of, say, a 40 turn guaranteed-peace deal that extends indefinitely past the 40th turn with a 10-turn cancellation notice clause. (ie - Cancellation notice can't be given before 40 turns in.)
Combined with this peace deal we would also like to make a tech-swapping arrangement…
Trade:
We already have Education – as you are probably aware - and just acquired Invention. We also expect to be done with researching gunpowder in the next 10 turns.
Based on our culture graphs, it appears that MIA is likely to be a quicker researcher. It may be in both teams' best interest to enter a tech buying/selling agreement instead of tech trading. Instead of you spending money researching 1 tech and trading it for 1 additional tech, we may be able to sell you techs for significantly less than 50% of their cost so you save money. You could just build marketplaces (which you will certainly want anyway) and thus not need to spend precious shields on a lot of libraries. We would be able to deficit research to ensure that together, we will pull far ahead of KISS.
Not only would you be free to focus on northward expansion, but you would also be free to maximize use of your Commercial trait, while MIA leans on our Scientific trait to research for both teams.
Obviously, in order for this type of arrangement to work, we would have to agree to a no tech trade with KISS clause for a predetermined number of turns as well as a reasonable price for techs. (For example, all techs have a 20 turn "cooling off" period before they can be traded) (and by "reasonable price," we mean something very generous like: 650 gold for Gunpowder - worth 1,440 beakers – with flexible payment options)
Cooperation:
We’re eager to hear what you think of combining a tech deal with a peace treaty – and what terms both deals should have. Please let us know your thoughts on both of these items, and we will work on drawing up a formal treaty.
These are dark days in which the specter of KISS domination hangs over the whole world. We're sure you are even more aware of this, now that you share your continent with an expanding KISS settlement and KISS army.
The Doughnuts and the MIA must look to each other in brotherhood to stand against the gathering dark.
We look forward to hearing from you soon.
Your brothers across the sea,
MIA
Here is what I see as our problem – Dnuts are much better off entering a tech trading agreement with KISS than with MIA. The reason is that MIA is a faster researcher than KISS. Dnuts should cooperate with the slower team to keep up with the faster team instead of helping the faster team pull ahead.
Dnuts do not know we are faster than KISS right now (or at least they don’t know how much faster), and we don’t want them to be able to jump ship once they find out. When I was talking about a no tech trade clause with KISS, I mean Dnuts can’t buy techs from KISS either. Otherwise, they should do that as soon as they complete Education and realize we have both Banking and Astronomy. Best case is we end up competing with KISS to undersell each other. Worst case is Dnuts won’t even consider buying from us.
I want a deal where Dnuts cannot buy from, sell to or trade techs with KISS (and MIA won’t either) for the next 50 turns or so. What’s in it for Dnuts to commit to something like that? Rock-bottom prices for one. I don’t want to give them any example because I don’t want them to try to get a counteroffer from KISS. And really, our prices are going to have to be much lower than Gunpowder for 650 gold, for example. That is not that much savings over researching one tech and then getting another for “free” (via trade). In any case, I want them to come up with a number, then we just say “we accept” so they cannot in good faith then go to KISS for a counter.
Other advantages for Dnuts include the knowledge that we won’t trade with KISS (or buy KISS’ techs) then sell KISS’ techs to Dnuts at a profit. They can also be secure in the knowledge that they are keeping up with (or pulling ahead of) KISS and spending maybe 1/3 (TBD) of the money to do so making their economy much better than KISS’.
Anyway, I know it’s a tough sell, but I think we have to go for an exclusive arrangement with Dnuts. I really feel that if we do not get the exclusivity, then as soon as Dnuts find out the true tech situation, we will not have any deal.
Finally, I’m not even sure we should mention a length of peace. I’m more inclined to say, yes, we are interested in peace; we don’t want it to end around the same time our peace with KISS ends. I think we should make them provide the details whenever possible.
Obviously, not all that can go in a letter (our letters tend to be too long as it is), but I wnated my thoughts down so we can agree on our goals.
Dnuts do not know we are faster than KISS right now (or at least they don’t know how much faster), and we don’t want them to be able to jump ship once they find out. When I was talking about a no tech trade clause with KISS, I mean Dnuts can’t buy techs from KISS either. Otherwise, they should do that as soon as they complete Education and realize we have both Banking and Astronomy. Best case is we end up competing with KISS to undersell each other. Worst case is Dnuts won’t even consider buying from us.
I want a deal where Dnuts cannot buy from, sell to or trade techs with KISS (and MIA won’t either) for the next 50 turns or so. What’s in it for Dnuts to commit to something like that? Rock-bottom prices for one. I don’t want to give them any example because I don’t want them to try to get a counteroffer from KISS. And really, our prices are going to have to be much lower than Gunpowder for 650 gold, for example. That is not that much savings over researching one tech and then getting another for “free” (via trade). In any case, I want them to come up with a number, then we just say “we accept” so they cannot in good faith then go to KISS for a counter.
Other advantages for Dnuts include the knowledge that we won’t trade with KISS (or buy KISS’ techs) then sell KISS’ techs to Dnuts at a profit. They can also be secure in the knowledge that they are keeping up with (or pulling ahead of) KISS and spending maybe 1/3 (TBD) of the money to do so making their economy much better than KISS’.
Anyway, I know it’s a tough sell, but I think we have to go for an exclusive arrangement with Dnuts. I really feel that if we do not get the exclusivity, then as soon as Dnuts find out the true tech situation, we will not have any deal.
Finally, I’m not even sure we should mention a length of peace. I’m more inclined to say, yes, we are interested in peace; we don’t want it to end around the same time our peace with KISS ends. I think we should make them provide the details whenever possible.
Obviously, not all that can go in a letter (our letters tend to be too long as it is
), but I wnated my thoughts down so we can agree on our goals.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Wow – you're right Chamnix… that could be a tough sell.
I don't fundamentally disagree with any of your main points – but I do have a few comments.
1)
2)
3)
4)
I understand the desire to make/let the Nutters come up with their own numbers, but if we don't even send them any guidelines, then we're just begging for a long, drawn-out negotiation process.
And maybe most powerfully – if we offer no numbers, their focus will be 100% on our demands for total exclusivity in our trades. This is a pretty tough demand to combine with a good deal… but when this demand is combined with a deal that the Nuts don't know if it's good or bad… I think it's likely to leave a sour taste in their mouth.
If we throw in some numbers, they'll get an idea of how good of a deal we're offering – Making them more likely to agree to our demands to exclude KISS – and will give them something else to talk about and argue about besides wondering why MIA wants KISS so totally out of the loop.
EDIT: Version 4 updated a bit more
I don't fundamentally disagree with any of your main points – but I do have a few comments.
1)
This is certainly true from a purely "keeping pace" technology perspective. But when you add in other strategic considerations… like KISS is likely to be the Dnuts biggest competitor for land in the North… and that KISS's easiest option for securing a domination win will be to attack Dnuts – not the much stronger MIA… then all of a sudden, trading with MIA and not with KISS becomes much more attractive.
2)
I like this idea also… but it's going to be a real trick to get them to agree to this without revealing our true reasons for wanting it. We'll have to play the Fear-KISS card really heavy. Making getting this deal done before they get education and realize our full strength even more important.
3)
This would work in a USA real estate transaction where the law requires you to honor good-faith offers. But I somehow doubt that just accepting a Dnut proposal will stop them from shopping around with KISS if that is their intention. I think we'd be better served by putting at least one hypothetical number on the table to show that we're serious when we say "good deal" and to move this process along faster. Remember, time is of the essence here.
4)
If we're going to say, we just want a peace deal that doesn’t expire at the same time our deal with KISS does – why not just say "40 turns" ? – It's the same thing, it's shorter, and pointing out the timing with the KISS deal only shows that we are paranoid.
I understand the desire to make/let the Nutters come up with their own numbers, but if we don't even send them any guidelines, then we're just begging for a long, drawn-out negotiation process.
And maybe most powerfully – if we offer no numbers, their focus will be 100% on our demands for total exclusivity in our trades. This is a pretty tough demand to combine with a good deal… but when this demand is combined with a deal that the Nuts don't know if it's good or bad… I think it's likely to leave a sour taste in their mouth.
If we throw in some numbers, they'll get an idea of how good of a deal we're offering – Making them more likely to agree to our demands to exclude KISS – and will give them something else to talk about and argue about besides wondering why MIA wants KISS so totally out of the loop.
Spoiler Version 4 :
EDIT: Version 4 updated a bit more
You may be right about MIA being an OK trading partner since KISS is more threatening, but even still, see my best case scenario - if we don't get exclusivity, then we can expect to have to bargain over the price every time as KISS tries to undercut us.
I understand that there is no legally binding agreement just because the offer came from Dnuts, but consider what we would do in their place. If KISS came to us and offered to sell tech X for 500 gold, I would think nothing of asking DNuts how much they would sell it for and take the lower offer. However, if we went to KISS and offered to buy tech X for 500 gold, and they said OK, there is no way I would then go to Dnuts to look for a better offer. It is possible the Donuts come with that much sleaze in which case there is nothing we can do, but if they have any class then it is better to wait for their offer.
I guess I really don't have a good reason not to put a turn number on the peace agreement - my main problem is that I don't know how long is good for us. But what is wrong with sounding paranoid about KISS? They are the big bad domination-threatening aggressive military machine, right?
In any case, if we don't have tech exclusivity, then we may actually end up with no tech trades/sales, and all we are agreeing to is peace, and that is a bad deal for us. We only want peace if we get a tech deal (not that we necessarily want war, but we have no reason to fear Dnuts for the next 30 turns regardless), but I don't know how to say that without sounding extortionate.
I understand that there is no legally binding agreement just because the offer came from Dnuts, but consider what we would do in their place. If KISS came to us and offered to sell tech X for 500 gold, I would think nothing of asking DNuts how much they would sell it for and take the lower offer. However, if we went to KISS and offered to buy tech X for 500 gold, and they said OK, there is no way I would then go to Dnuts to look for a better offer. It is possible the Donuts come with that much sleaze in which case there is nothing we can do, but if they have any class then it is better to wait for their offer.
I guess I really don't have a good reason not to put a turn number on the peace agreement - my main problem is that I don't know how long is good for us. But what is wrong with sounding paranoid about KISS? They are the big bad domination-threatening aggressive military machine, right?
In any case, if we don't have tech exclusivity, then we may actually end up with no tech trades/sales, and all we are agreeing to is peace, and that is a bad deal for us. We only want peace if we get a tech deal (not that we necessarily want war, but we have no reason to fear Dnuts for the next 30 turns regardless), but I don't know how to say that without sounding extortionate.
I'm with General_W on the numbers thing. We should give DNUTs an idea of how good a deal we are willing to offer, and the general time frame. We should simply make certain that they understand that we are open to tweaking the numbers involved. This will give them the illusion of control. Our first letter (General_W's #4, in the spoiler above in post 117) is a great starting point for DNUTs to respond to. We have outlined our general terms. Let's just insert a clause that makes it clear that we are willing to adjust the numbers: Think about what we're offering, and examine the costs. We are always willing to cooperate and compromise with a partner; if we don't both benefit, then neither of us does.
fe3333au
Deity
I like it too ...
I also thing an exclusivity clause is essential.
I also am more comfortable with a locked in period, we begin re-negotiating the extension early and get to 'feel' them out.
I'm not sure about saying we will have Gunpowder in 10 ... too much information too soon IMO.
Also change ...
In order for this type of arrangement to work for MIA, we would have to agree to a "no tech trade with KISS" clause where neither MIA or Dnuts would buy, sell, or trade tech with KISS for the duration of the treaty and a predetermined number of turns after the treaty has expired.
This will add security for both teams that after the treaty has ended, the other team doesn't give KISS all techs in return for a surprise attack.
If you prefer we could also add ...
During the above period, a technology trade with KISS can be offered if and only if both MIA and Doughnuts agree.
While I doubt this will ever be used, there may come a time when we both decide that such a trade benefits both TNT and Nuts.
Regarding flexible payment ... it shouldn't be too flexible as we will be on negligible income generation.
Also regarding that perhaps Nuts would also want a clause indicating an acciptible period where techs are completed ... I can see a fellow paranoid being concerned about the possibility of MIA holding off on selling a vital military tech prior to the ending of the treaty.
Also would Nuts also have a say in which technology we are researching? ... this too would probably have to be agreed to mutually.
BIG QUESTION
Am I correct in that this is the end-game alliance ... and for this period both Nuts and MIA are alligned to smash KISS???
If so ... maybe we should sound them out about this as an idea.
I also thing an exclusivity clause is essential.
I also am more comfortable with a locked in period, we begin re-negotiating the extension early and get to 'feel' them out.
I'm not sure about saying we will have Gunpowder in 10 ... too much information too soon IMO.
Also change ...
In order for this type of arrangement to work for MIA, we would have to agree to a "no tech trade with KISS" clause where neither MIA or Dnuts would buy, sell, or trade tech with KISS for the duration of the treaty and a predetermined number of turns after the treaty has expired.
This will add security for both teams that after the treaty has ended, the other team doesn't give KISS all techs in return for a surprise attack.
If you prefer we could also add ...
During the above period, a technology trade with KISS can be offered if and only if both MIA and Doughnuts agree.
While I doubt this will ever be used, there may come a time when we both decide that such a trade benefits both TNT and Nuts.
Regarding flexible payment ... it shouldn't be too flexible as we will be on negligible income generation.
Also regarding that perhaps Nuts would also want a clause indicating an acciptible period where techs are completed ... I can see a fellow paranoid being concerned about the possibility of MIA holding off on selling a vital military tech prior to the ending of the treaty.
Also would Nuts also have a say in which technology we are researching? ... this too would probably have to be agreed to mutually.
BIG QUESTION
Am I correct in that this is the end-game alliance ... and for this period both Nuts and MIA are alligned to smash KISS???
If so ... maybe we should sound them out about this as an idea.
