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Dr kossin #17

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Jan 18, 2010.

  1. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    My vote is for 1SE (from your current location) to grab the Gold in the 1st city. Then you have good chances for Oracle.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    FIN coastal seafood has good chances for oracle anyway.
     
  3. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    I'll take your word for that.


    Regarding the current decision, I'm really not sure at this point.

    I would have settled in place from the beginning (based on the observations I provided after seeing the scouting results).
     
  4. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    SE gives great production and good early commerce. The only disadvantage is that your capital will have zero blocking value.
     
  5. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    SE needs lighthouse early to have enough food. With lighthouse it can probably cover all hills without farms.

    Early lighthouse+gold is calling for GLH.

    Going for GLH and settling towards corner is asking for problem.

    Conclusion migrate back to initial place.
     
  6. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    But we only need to consider working the Marble + Gold in the early game, since the food requirement of these 2 tiles together is +3. In this case, 1 clam w/o Lighthouse will be sufficient.

    But the location has access 3 clams, which results in a food surplus of +8 (including the +2 from the center tile). This gives you a potential net surplus of +5 w/o Lighthouse, when working the Marble + Gold + 3 Clams.
     
  7. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    +4 tiles suck. few coins does not make clams better than rice considering that for improving two of clams you loose worker [or 90 hammers if you think that way.].

    And people still complain about unirigated rice all day long.

    [Wanna some growth diagrams?]
     
  8. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Gone fishing for the summer
    Clams are sucky compared to fish. I'd prefer pigs (original spot) to keep my worker employed.
     
  9. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    They suck, but being financial, coastal clams are pretty decent still. 4f/3c is pretty respectable early. 4 clams and 1 gold will mean you'll get a strong headstart in teching early. However, it sucks for expansion, especially if you go for TGL.
     
  10. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    You would need to get out a settler ASAP to claim the Pig with a 2nd city, and use the 2nd city for producing more settlers.

    The 1st city would act as a basis for commerce to support further expansion.
     
  11. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    I'd rather claim gold with second city instead. Main point here is being more inland - which means easier blocking. It is way to early to judge if this is important. If Kossin is on seperate island than moving to gold site and going for lighthouses is probably superior. If he is next to some imperialistic problem this can be disastrous.
     
  12. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Round 1

    So I went back to the initial settler position and built Timbuktu.
    Spoiler :


    On turn 11, we are met by the Koreans.
    Spoiler :



    Early techs were: Fishing>BW>Masonry>Myst>Poly>Priesthood>Ag>Hunting>AH
    This kinda slowed down our second city but not getting a worker to start the game slows down expansion and extra hammers for the Oracle were needed.

    The Oracle was whipped 3 turns from completion for a few reasons.
    First, it ensured I would get it.
    Second, the copper you can see would be hooked next turn so I could start on an Axe right away.
    Third, there was an annoying barb archer roaming to the south of Timbuktu and I didn't want to chance getting pillaged.
    Spoiler :


    I selected Monarchy as a freebie, naturally.
    Spoiler :


    The following turn I got some failure gold from 1 turn I had put into the Temple of Artemis.
    Spoiler :
    30 gold is not too shabby.


    I stopped at 800BC with quite a bit to do yet.

    Our land.
    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :
    Both food and crabs. Harbors will yield 3:health: which will be very good in Timbuktu.

    Spoiler :
    This is the only source of horses I can see right now. I placed a dotmap of where I can most likely secure them. While not the most important thing, horses would be great for a fast war against WK later on, if it ever comes to that.


    Timbuktu - nice food surplus
    Spoiler :
    A lighthouse would be nice just about now. I'll start running scientists when the library is complete though.


    Techs
    Spoiler :


    Odds are WK will start putting beakers into Monarchy when he completes Prieshood, so I probably should invest my gold into Alphabet right now so I can trade for it when he does so.


    Barb galleys?
    Spoiler :
    There's a small island with what looks like barb culture to the southeast. I'm a bit afraid we'll be getting barb galleys from that direction to pillage our seafood.


    Regarding GLH: tossup between it and The Oracle. I think GLH would have been better looking back but oh well.

    Coastal starts are the ones which make me struggle the most, especially without Fish. I need more practice on those...

    CFC has been lagging for me today (is it just me?) and I almost lost the round report - thanks for a quick Ctrl-a + Ctrl-c, I didn't have to re-do it.
     
  13. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    Not sure why you settled the Gold city on the Grassland Hill instead of the Plains Hill. Settling on the Plains Hill would have given +1 hammer and the ability to share the clam with the capital.


    Edit:
    Wang Kon is protective, but you have Skirmishers and Ivory access. An early takeover of this continent (if indeed Wang Kon is the only neighbor) would give you a head start in competing with the other AIs. The combination of Elephants and Skirmishers would be an effective counter to his Hwachas.
     
  14. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I honestly don't have a good answer for that other than I've been playing lousily as of late (especially offline games... oh my). The only other answer I can provide is to get more coastal tiles (rather than sea tiles).

    WK does appear to be the only AI on the landmass since he has a bit more EP against me. An elephant war (or maybe even a quick detour to HAs) could be worth it definitely.
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    4F 3C is a lot better than unirrigated rice (which is irrelevant as we have no such option in the capitol this game...I do understand that the work boat isn't an insignificant up front cost though). The AI weights that as a 52 value, while the pigs here are 56 (DaveMCW would score it 22.5 to 19). The work boat is costly but people underestimate the value of early commerce. Working all 3 seafood has a higher commerce yield than a gold mine.

    Fish IS a lot better though. I love seeing coastal fish, only irrigated corn/wheat compete with it long term, although early on I might prefer a flat grassland pig also.

    I settled 1SE of the start position, so I didn't get to work the gold :rolleyes:. Hax.
     
  16. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    Elephants, Catapults, and Skirmishers are a step up from standard Elephants + Catapults. The Skirmishers are cheap, efficient mop-up units that can greatly boost your numbers without costing a lot of hammers, while at the same time providing great stack defense against Spearmen.


    At least you get 2H2C (I think) for settling the Gold.

    Edit:
    Sorry...I looked and saw that it's only 2H1C. Hope you made good use of the extra hammer!
     
  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Interesting map here. Looks like you could get hemmed in pretty quickly. Kong usually expands fast.
     
  18. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    I'd consider settling 1E of the Corn, and draw Wang Kon into settling the white dot 1SE of the Horse. The reasons for this are:

    1) With the powerful combo of Protective + Hwachas, your intent is for him to build units other than Archers or Hwachas. Giving him Horse will accomphish this purpose. Additionally, his horse units will be countered by your War Elephants.

    2) You want his closest city not to be on a hill. This is the city where he will most likely position his stack.

    3) Settling 1E of the Corn allows you to emphasize commerce more, providing you a better economy leading up to the war.
     
  19. lsgag

    lsgag Chieftain

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    I shadowed this game and now i am up to a point where i need some help because this is where is always goes wrong!

    until 1230 AD
    Spoiler :

    I dont remember the start very well but i settled in place, and research to fishing, BW, sailing, mysticm, masonry, polytiesm. I skipped agri and AH, because there was food from the clam, with 3c which was nice to speed up research.

    I build 1 worker and whiped a settler in between the GLH and the TOA. Afterwards I expanded by only making coastal cities. and i grabbed the collosus.

    I wanted to bulb my way to lib, but i got first and GM and then a GP now i got 3 GS in a row bulbing edu and a part of printingpress. The Taj Mahal is 1 turn from completion in the capital and so is liberalism. I am planning on grabbing Rifling as a freetech. But here is the problem. I am ahead quite some techs on everyone but Wang. But who should i attack? And when should i start my GA, because having a GA while drafting seems a waste. Should i build more workers (i have only 3 i believe but i figured it was okey since i am mostly working watertiles) and build some workshops to for extra production swichting to cast system and pump out rifles?

    Well i hope some can give me some good advice, thx in advantage!
     

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  20. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Start to End-Game
    Spoiler :

    Hmm, boy this one was interesting too. I only had 5 cities, and yet Wang ended up getting twenty! And I still kicked his ass all over the place. Very interesting.

    Where to start… I went and naturally grabbed a lot of marble wonders. And many that weren’t. BTW, I settled right on top of the marble at the start. If I had seen all the terrain from turn #0, then I would not have moved, but what was done was done. This left 2 gold hills totally unused for the entire duration of the game (and what would have been a great spot for my 6’th city! Arggghh.

    Anyhow, Jesus Christ, did Wang have unlimited expansion room or what!? Like I said, 20 cities to my weak 5. But he was an idiot. He traded horses to me for only copper and 8 gold a turn. Then he had the nerve to ignore rifling and instead go for Radio haha.

    I won lib easy with no light bulbs, and no cottages. Then I stockpiled tones and tones of cav, well, considering I had only 5 cities, I waited until I had 50 cav, so that was roughly 10 per city. Boy did I have some unhappy problems from whipping but who cares.

    DoW on Wang and that’s when I ran into a ton of bad luck. I had over half a dozen spies in Wangs capital, and all failed. Typical, never fails, this is why I often ignore spies, but in this case I had spy points I wanted to burn off somewhere anyhow.

    This stalled my war but I just went around taking other cities for the meantime. Eventually I finally knocked out that capital on his hill, breaking his army. Then I took the mighty shrine city. And then… I couldn’t help myself so I kept taking more cities before extorting peace from him.

    Game was basically wrapped up at that point, but I decided to just do the click-end-turn a bunch of times even though I was getting tired. Eventually I found myself completing the internet. I actually was still grabbing all the media wonders etc, but I was so tired I forgot to build the Broadway, despite I had it guaranteed if I had wanted it! Boy… I really need to quit sometimes while I’m awake and still ahead.

    Well, needless to say after building the internet I think I’ve gone beyond the call of duty this time. I will retire while ahead and spend what spare time I have to finish my turn sets in a couple team-deity games I have going.

    --

    Other notes, I did capture a 6’th city (barbs) on the other continent. But then I got a fancy idea to add another settler and make a vassal. Not sure this was so smart, but it did have lots of potential. The problem was my vassal was such an idiot.






     

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