Dramatic Age discussion
- Thread starter mad hadder
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TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
Well, I see nothing in here to change my mind. Never playing it.
I would say that the Golden and Dark age Police overhaul is worth it, it'll probably be very easy to mod out the city flipping. I just wish the game recognised Heroic Ages as a seperate age rather than a Golden Age in the requirements.
Kmart_Elvis
King
Can anyone verify if she loses those cities?
I wouldn't like it at all if she did. She's essentially losing one of her bonuses. Plus you do have to jump through some hoops to make it work: 1) city must be founded 2) on the coast 3) on your home continent.
sonicmyst
Emperor
Same with cities in proximity to Statue of Liberty. I wonder if those will ever flip in a dark age.
oedali
King
I am pretty sure they still flip for Dido or statue of liberty because it does not seem to require a loyalty threshold, ie even if all cities are full loyalty some % will still flip rounded up to nearest integer. That's just my guess though haven't actually verified .
I played a test game on immortal and uh, nope. I'm not a fan.
You're penalized for going wide; the Golden Age threshold becomes prohibitive if you found (and maybe capture?) too many cities. Usually I play on huge maps, and I frequently have 20+ cities.
I was unfortunate to "earn" an industrial era dark age and that was that. Lost four (fairly important) cities, and was going to lose at least 3 - 4 more before I threw up my hands and rage quit.
You're penalized for going wide; the Golden Age threshold becomes prohibitive if you found (and maybe capture?) too many cities. Usually I play on huge maps, and I frequently have 20+ cities.
I was unfortunate to "earn" an industrial era dark age and that was that. Lost four (fairly important) cities, and was going to lose at least 3 - 4 more before I threw up my hands and rage quit.
I really like how they’ve added and rebalanced the golden age bonuses themselves, but can’t say that I love the change of dedications into policies. There was already a lot to juggle in terms of policies and I don’t think adding more is a positive change.
I like the instant rebellion aspect of dark ages (though it should probably be rounded down instead of up). I think intentionally slingshotting dark into heroic ages is dumb; dark ages should be something you avoid at all costs, and scrape your way out of. It makes maintaining a decent military more important, keeps the game dynamic, and acts to reduce snowballing dullness.
That said, I think free cities exerting their own loyalty is bad. The AI is extremely passive about retaking free cities by force, so it’s a subtle shift towards human players. I think a mechanic where cities instantly rebel, but the innate loyalty pressure can bring them back into the original empire or a new one, would work better from both a gameplay and role play perspective.
I think the loss of normal ages is a change for the worse. In the regular game, they’re something you should almost always try to avoid, but instant rebellions with dark ages would make normal ages a lot more attractive.
So far, I’ve found it much easier to chain golden ages, but I’ll see how this changes over the course of the game. I’m playing also on standard speed, where it’s much easier to chain golden ages than quick or online speed.
Overall it’s reflective of NFP as a whole, where there are some great and interesting ideas that just aren’t fully fleshed out and balanced.
I like the instant rebellion aspect of dark ages (though it should probably be rounded down instead of up). I think intentionally slingshotting dark into heroic ages is dumb; dark ages should be something you avoid at all costs, and scrape your way out of. It makes maintaining a decent military more important, keeps the game dynamic, and acts to reduce snowballing dullness.
That said, I think free cities exerting their own loyalty is bad. The AI is extremely passive about retaking free cities by force, so it’s a subtle shift towards human players. I think a mechanic where cities instantly rebel, but the innate loyalty pressure can bring them back into the original empire or a new one, would work better from both a gameplay and role play perspective.
I think the loss of normal ages is a change for the worse. In the regular game, they’re something you should almost always try to avoid, but instant rebellions with dark ages would make normal ages a lot more attractive.
So far, I’ve found it much easier to chain golden ages, but I’ll see how this changes over the course of the game. I’m playing also on standard speed, where it’s much easier to chain golden ages than quick or online speed.
Overall it’s reflective of NFP as a whole, where there are some great and interesting ideas that just aren’t fully fleshed out and balanced.
James_Champagne
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2019
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- 217
Trying it out on marathon mode... I needed 30 era points in Ancient to hit Golden... I could only get 27! Oddly enough, one of the civ AIs (France) had a dark age as well, but neither of their two cities rebelled... though now that I think it over, they might have just settled a city at a spot on the map I haven't uncovered yet.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Two random thoughs:
1) Not sure if someone already mentioned it...but beside obvious Georgia, Ottomans seem to be a fun and powerful choice for this mode (you have benefits for cities you don't have found your self and one extra governor to manipulate loyalty, if you should fall in a dark age)
2) Since reaching Political Philosopy is so crucial here, combining this mode with tech shuffle one might be interesting.
1) Not sure if someone already mentioned it...but beside obvious Georgia, Ottomans seem to be a fun and powerful choice for this mode (you have benefits for cities you don't have found your self and one extra governor to manipulate loyalty, if you should fall in a dark age)
2) Since reaching Political Philosopy is so crucial here, combining this mode with tech shuffle one might be interesting.
Askia Muhammad
Warlord
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- Aug 15, 2019
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- 128
My favorite mode thus far although tech/civic shuffle is close. I may never play a SP game again without this on.
I don’t really care for the cards (I’d rather have dedications) but I *REALLY* love the city flipping.
I’ve also observed a few AI only matches and in one Gaul grew enormous - they had all of Europe and much of Asia. They ended up hitting a dark age in the renaissance and lost 5 cities. The result was that the Romans who had been exiled to the North African coast reconquered 3 of the cities that went free and in Asia, the Mongols also got their cities back.
two ages later - Mongols lost the cities again and then Korea conquered their capital. I *REALLY* love the rise and fall dynamic this adds to the game
I don’t really care for the cards (I’d rather have dedications) but I *REALLY* love the city flipping.
I’ve also observed a few AI only matches and in one Gaul grew enormous - they had all of Europe and much of Asia. They ended up hitting a dark age in the renaissance and lost 5 cities. The result was that the Romans who had been exiled to the North African coast reconquered 3 of the cities that went free and in Asia, the Mongols also got their cities back.
two ages later - Mongols lost the cities again and then Korea conquered their capital. I *REALLY* love the rise and fall dynamic this adds to the game
glider1
Deity
People are saying the AI can't capture free cities but that is not what you observed.
Loderingo
Warlord
Had my first ever death by loyalty on this mode.
Playing Freleanor, immortal, Highlands. Start with Gauls nearby. They attack and take Paris. I'm still alive as I have Marseilles nearby. I manage to get Paris back in the peace treaty with the Gauls (not sure if this is a bug or because it was going to loyalty flip anyway). I'm reaching the end of ancient era and I miss out on a golden age by 2 points. Paris immediately flips to free city and I don't have the troops to take it back. I build a 3rd city nearby but then both my cities start losing loyalty and I only have one governor. Try adding monuments but no use. Both cities flip on the same turn and game over.
Playing Freleanor, immortal, Highlands. Start with Gauls nearby. They attack and take Paris. I'm still alive as I have Marseilles nearby. I manage to get Paris back in the peace treaty with the Gauls (not sure if this is a bug or because it was going to loyalty flip anyway). I'm reaching the end of ancient era and I miss out on a golden age by 2 points. Paris immediately flips to free city and I don't have the troops to take it back. I build a 3rd city nearby but then both my cities start losing loyalty and I only have one governor. Try adding monuments but no use. Both cities flip on the same turn and game over.
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
as far as I know it takes into account passive loyalty pressure, rather than the overall pressure, so loyalty immunities aren't useful, which is sad, cuz it would make Phoenicia and Statue of Liberty very powerful.
Ceydezed
Warlord
As others have said, dramatic ages really add some complexity to the game at one point, and a feeling of "rise and fall". In the game I just finished (diety, shuffle mode, huge size, normal speed, dramatic ages enabled), some empires were very strong (Rome was second in score at one point, around turn 150) and in one or two ages just completely collapsed and disappeared. It was the first time I saw 4 players eliminated without me achieving a domination victory, while other players were very strong and dangerous for the win (Hojo would have won SV around turn 290 if I didn't win before, which is quite quick for an AI).
Anyway it really gives a new vibe to the game and am really enjoying it!
Anyway it really gives a new vibe to the game and am really enjoying it!
Askia Muhammad
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2019
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- 128
Yes. they were able to recapture the cities but it took A LOT longer than a human player. I watched Gaul take 45 turns to take a city state that had nothing but a catapult defending it with a MASSIVE army including battering rams. They kept shuffling units in and out for no apparent reason. It was frustrating to watch but Gaul AI seems very strong in general as they had already completely wiped a Civ out and brought Rome down to 1 city prior to the dark age.
Ceydezed
Warlord
To be fair, one thing that i noticed while myself attempting to invade these "free cities empire", is that it's really difficult to do so. They have a ton of quite advanced units and the loyalty is strong from the other nearby free cities. Without a well balanced army (or planes, GDR, etc.), you will face issues, so it doesn't surprise me that the AI can't do it. And even if you manage to capture one city, it won't remain loyal to you if there are many free cities around, but will flip in 3-5 turns, as if you were capturing another player's city. It definitely is not easy to grab a piece of this cake.
The biggest change for me is that free cities now exert pressure to other cities to become free cities as well (normal mode does not have this).
Sometimes, with rather dramatic results... look at England here. (Deity AI nonetheless). With a dark age, it is quite possible for an empire to simply implode if the cities that leave the empire are the large size ones.
Sometimes, with rather dramatic results... look at England here. (Deity AI nonetheless). With a dark age, it is quite possible for an empire to simply implode if the cities that leave the empire are the large size ones.
Askia Muhammad
Warlord
- Joined
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Yes, and I don’t know if this is a change or something I failed to notice but the free cities that flip with dramatic ages generate a metric ton of units. At one point Byzantium lost a remote city and I went to capture it to find that the free city had 15 units and was actively clearing barbarian encampments nearby.
I’ve never seen free city units pursue barbarians and I’ve definitely never seen a single free city with that many units!
PhoenicianGold
Emperor
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- Jan 30, 2018
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- 1,828
On the contrary I think it's a great change. I never liked dedications to begin with, felt like a really thin system that should have always been part of the policy card system. And I don't think the effect is "slap as many gold cards as you can" when they serve wildly different purposes and don't synergize as well together as with other policy cards.
