D'Tesh
- Thread starter Nadrak
- Start date
Even then...the 1is still missing...
That's just a display issue. For some reason Firaxis thought it would be cool to display a
or 
or 
next to the resource icon. It has never done anything.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I never tried to count the bonuses...so ash gives only 1%...that is not cool, considering how badly they expand.
I'm not sure if the standard bonus
health:, , etc) applies for each bonus you have... I know 
does not, I assume the others don't.The science bonus, however, is one of few that IS cumulative. As is the damage bonus for the hell resource (Forget it's name).
Basically, your
from Ash is not stackable; The bonus IS. 
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
That's just a display issue. For some reason Firaxis thought it would be cool to display a
Well, I thought that it's a "type" of a resource then too, however why do some resources have +2
shown?Well, I thought that it's a "type" of a resource then too, however why do some resources have +2
Darned if I know.
I think the "bonus" shown is the bonus you get from having the resource unimproved in a square. But since there doesn't seem to be any reason to display it...
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
Yeah, it's probably that. The +2 resource is Arctic Deer, and it definitely gives +2 on the square it's on.
resource is Arctic Deer, and it definitely gives +2 on the square it's on.Yeah, it's probably that. The +2
It is only in a popup the
is shown, right? If so, it could be that the same popup is used somewhere else where it makes more sense to display such information.
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
In the pedia.
Stupid question, then - how do you ash resources?
Have a watcher build a pyre on it, it has the workshop icon. I got thrown off for a while myself, because for some reason it doesn't work on camels.
Vorpal+5
Venturing in Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 658
D'Tesh could benefit a bit from some entries into Civilopedia...
I have a problem with D'Tesh... It is perhaps too weak early on (when you have strengh 2warriors and you play with a very hostile world full of barbs) but if you survive and start to have the ball rollings (death mana to get warriors with the strength of champions, or capital with infinite pop (no discontent, no food need)) then the game is basically over...
So I question this design. I believe it is not, excuse me, very good. I can understand that it can be interesting to have a race designed to be weak at start but strong in the end, but not with such extremes...
I would suggest for example that:
1. affinity to death mana is limited to say up to +3 combat bonus per unit.
2. the 'no discontent' bonus from mage guild is converted to say: +10 content bonus
This would lock the abuses while giving a very powerful end game D'Tesh.
I have a problem with D'Tesh... It is perhaps too weak early on (when you have strengh 2warriors and you play with a very hostile world full of barbs) but if you survive and start to have the ball rollings (death mana to get warriors with the strength of champions, or capital with infinite pop (no discontent, no food need)) then the game is basically over...
So I question this design. I believe it is not, excuse me, very good. I can understand that it can be interesting to have a race designed to be weak at start but strong in the end, but not with such extremes...
I would suggest for example that:
1. affinity to death mana is limited to say up to +3 combat bonus per unit.
2. the 'no discontent' bonus from mage guild is converted to say: +10 content bonus
This would lock the abuses while giving a very powerful end game D'Tesh.
lemonjelly
Modding For Ethne
Thanks for all these tips. I never knew about the pyre into ashes, and would have never thought about only expanding with forts. The only problem with forts is that they make your minimap look odd, but, apart from that, a game where you only built forts to expand would be very interesting.
In my latest game as the Lanun, my starting settler got into the middle of my starting continent (Perfectworld2 script) and claimed a fort. That culture from the now castle introduced me to five other civs, and when I saw an empty barb city (Clan cast their worldspell), my healing scout ran and captured it, giving me two cities very early on. So, expanding via forts is very useful indeed.
Back on topic, there's no point just posting, asking for more documentation, because Valkrionn is very busy. Why don't you make a module, its only one file you need to add text in the game, you could just bung all these tips into the TXT_KEY for the Legion. I forget what one it is, but if you open the game and go into the padia, the line in the D'teshi pedia page is all you need. Then release it here as a module to help the community.
In my latest game as the Lanun, my starting settler got into the middle of my starting continent (Perfectworld2 script) and claimed a fort. That culture from the now castle introduced me to five other civs, and when I saw an empty barb city (Clan cast their worldspell), my healing scout ran and captured it, giving me two cities very early on. So, expanding via forts is very useful indeed.
Back on topic, there's no point just posting, asking for more documentation, because Valkrionn is very busy. Why don't you make a module, its only one file you need to add text in the game, you could just bung all these tips into the TXT_KEY for the Legion. I forget what one it is, but if you open the game and go into the padia, the line in the D'teshi pedia page is all you need. Then release it here as a module to help the community.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Woops, need to add Camels and Bison to it. Should probably add Camels to their Pasture now that they are visible...
Capping it like that would basically ruin them IMO. Mostly as then you NEED to preserve happiness resources, which thematically should be burned to ash. I have some ideas to change them, but they all require an enhanced affinity system.
Might get around to that eventually....
Really, I intend to write some up. It's just a pain in the ass.
Both of the other entries I've done (Malakim+ and Doviello+) were done when the mod they were for was finished. 
Vorpal+5
Venturing in Erebus
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 658
Not capping happiness is bad though. When slaves start rolling, then it is over, because cities don't need food and don't have unhappiness. As there is no cap, you can in the end get insane productions levels for your capital.
I modded the game so that the library and pagan temple both give +6 happiness, which is very generous but is a cap, and I removed the 'no unhappiness' from libary.
About the second point, death affinity. I like the concept of having warriors grow from weak to strong because of affinity, but here again you need to set a cap. Because when you pass the difficulty 'barrier' and get 4+ death node, here again the game is basically over, with warriors too strong for their cost, while before they were near useless except in some very specific case. This would be better imho that they are less weak at start but can't go above say +3 combat bonus from affinity. Perhaps then +4 for axemen and +5 for champions, but this need a bit of new code on affinity, as there is no cap possible.
For now I have modded the Wretched promotion and have removed the death affinity, definitively too abusable. I replaced that with the possibility to gain some xp for starter, and that melee units don't cost upkeep, so it can be a nice incentive for D'Tesh even if they are weak. Are we not speaking of innumerable legion of undead anyway?.
I modded the game so that the library and pagan temple both give +6 happiness, which is very generous but is a cap, and I removed the 'no unhappiness' from libary.
About the second point, death affinity. I like the concept of having warriors grow from weak to strong because of affinity, but here again you need to set a cap. Because when you pass the difficulty 'barrier' and get 4+ death node, here again the game is basically over, with warriors too strong for their cost, while before they were near useless except in some very specific case. This would be better imho that they are less weak at start but can't go above say +3 combat bonus from affinity. Perhaps then +4 for axemen and +5 for champions, but this need a bit of new code on affinity, as there is no cap possible.
For now I have modded the Wretched promotion and have removed the death affinity, definitively too abusable. I replaced that with the possibility to gain some xp for starter, and that melee units don't cost upkeep, so it can be a nice incentive for D'Tesh even if they are weak. Are we not speaking of innumerable legion of undead anyway?.
Code:
<PromotionInfo> <!-- Wretched -->
<Type>PROMOTION_WRETCHED</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_WRETCHED</Description>
<bAutoAcquire>1</bAutoAcquire>
<bNoXP>1</bNoXP>
<iSlaveGenerationChance>15</iSlaveGenerationChance>
<bFreeUnit>1</bFreeUnit>
<bNoSupply>1</bNoSupply>
<bNoSupport>1</bNoSupport>
<PrereqCivilizations>
<PrereqCivilization>CIVILIZATION_DTESH</PrereqCivilization>
</PrereqCivilizations>
<iExperiencePercent>-50</iExperiencePercent>
<UnitCombats>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
</UnitCombats>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Enervated.dds</Button>
<iExtraCombatStr>-1</iExtraCombatStr>
<iExtraCombatDefense>-1</iExtraCombatDefense>
<iAIWeight>-100</iAIWeight>
</PromotionInfo>Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Not capping happiness is bad though. When slaves start rolling, then it is over, because cities don't need food and don't have unhappiness. As there is no cap, you can in the end get insane productions levels for your capital.
I modded the game so that the library and pagan temple both give +6 happiness, which is very generous but is a cap, and I removed the 'no unhappiness' from libary.
About the second point, death affinity. I like the concept of having warriors grow from weak to strong because of affinity, but here again you need to set a cap. Because when you pass the difficulty 'barrier' and get 4+ death node, here again the game is basically over, with warriors too strong for their cost, while before they were near useless except in some very specific case. This would be better imho that they are less weak at start but can't go above say +3 combat bonus from affinity. Perhaps then +4 for axemen and +5 for champions, but this need a bit of new code on affinity, as there is no cap possible.
For now I have modded the Wretched promotion and have removed the death affinity, definitively too abusable. I replaced that with the possibility to gain some xp for starter, and that melee units don't cost upkeep, so it can be a nice incentive for D'Tesh even if they are weak. Are we not speaking of innumerable legion of undead anyway?.
IMHO, having a happiness cap defeats the entire nature of the civ; The whole flavor is built around a single necromancer controlling vast armies of undead from his tower. With some help from a few Angels of Death. They aren't really meant to have multiple cities IMO, at least not for anything but one-pop culture centers for resources. Which is better done by forts anyway, usually. I agree, the production can be strong late game... But it's something you WORK for. It's not handed to you easily, and it's a big part of the civ.
The way I'd approach affinity for them would be a fractional affinity. Say, +0.5
for each Death mana, +0.25 for Shadow, and so on. Encourages you to differentiate manas, and does not get the same high strength.As for units gaining xp... Most units are quite intentionally unable to gain xp. Helps balance, and it makes sense.... Shambling undead should not be learning new tricks.
The few exceptions are Recon (Need to be out by themselves, without supervision... Some small amount of intelligence left, at the least), Commanders (Angels), and Arcane (Lesser necromancers). I don't particularly care for Melee/Mounted getting xp again (Or rather, more openly. Already get small amounts from training/wonders/so on, just none from combat).Removing upkeep cost works for their flavor, but would be horrendously OP IMO. Honestly, more so with a happy cap than without.
You'll be getting the same amount of population with or without the cap; Without the cap, you're encouraged to get the one massive city, to get buildings faster. This limits the number of units you are able to produce each turn, though... With the cap, your buildings are slower, but your units (and thus, EXPANSION via captured slaves) is faster. I'd rather have them able to construct a new building in a turn and then go back to 1 unit a turn, then a building in 5 or 6 while popping out 5 warriors a turn from various cities.
Edit: Honestly, I may just limit them to 1 (or maybe 2-3) cities. Very easy to do via trait. I believe building requirements automatically adjust as well. As in, if you can only ever build 3 libraries then that's all you need for the Great Library. Not sure on that one though, would need to check the code.
Vermicious Knid
King
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 782
If anybody wants to put together documentation files that we can slip in please please please do...both me and Valk spend most of our time working on bug fixes and new material.
The conversation between me and Valk about Jotnar documentation has gone like this:
Valk:
Verm:
Valk:
Verm:
Valk:
Verm:
Valk:
Verm:
...and nothing game-ready has been produced.
Swinkscalibur
Prince
I'm a big fan of limiting the D'tesh like the Kuriotates, with the number of cities correlated to game map size. There are however a couple of issues with this
a) can the D'tesh build forts outside there borders?
b) is there a way for D'teshi forts to hold there territory better vs. enemy cities. (As of now forts are only good in unclaimed land. (Or would you let the terrain modifications and the corresponding undesirability of this land be the only detractor from enemies culture pushing D'tesh of their land)
On another note, some of the comments you made regarding melee and mounted experience got me thinking. If you are going to ban them from experience because lorewise it doesn't fit. Than why allow them to gain experience from buildings. Here are my ideas...
Can't remember off hand if the D'tesh have a Training Yard UB, but if they don't they should. It could be called "Necromantic Totem." This monument helps the D'teshi forces focus their energy to create more powerful unit types and it allows their arcane line to cast spells which would permanently boost the strength of units in the city.
Here are some spell ideas
Conjure Necromantic Armor - requires the Necromantic Totem building in the city. 6 turn cast time. (exact times can be balanced). Causes all melee and mounted units in the stack to gain the Necromantic Armor promotion (+40% defencive strength)
Conjure Enchanted Sword - essentially "Enchant Sword" without Enchantment mana. 3 turn cast time to compensate. Gives Enchanted Sword promotion to melee and mounted units. (+20% strength)
Infuse Strength - requires Necromantic Totem, and Chosen of D'tesh or Council of Four. 8 turn cast time. Gives an additional promotion to melee and mounted units in stack giving +20% strength.
I don't have time to write all my ideas but this should be enough to get the right idea. This building would be very important to the D'tesh, should have a slightly-average increase in hammer cost because of the boost it provides to mounted units as well. I like that it also encourages early development of the arcane line (which is flavor appropriate for the D'tesh)
a) can the D'tesh build forts outside there borders?
b) is there a way for D'teshi forts to hold there territory better vs. enemy cities. (As of now forts are only good in unclaimed land. (Or would you let the terrain modifications and the corresponding undesirability of this land be the only detractor from enemies culture pushing D'tesh of their land)
On another note, some of the comments you made regarding melee and mounted experience got me thinking. If you are going to ban them from experience because lorewise it doesn't fit. Than why allow them to gain experience from buildings. Here are my ideas...
Can't remember off hand if the D'tesh have a Training Yard UB, but if they don't they should. It could be called "Necromantic Totem." This monument helps the D'teshi forces focus their energy to create more powerful unit types and it allows their arcane line to cast spells which would permanently boost the strength of units in the city.
Here are some spell ideas
Conjure Necromantic Armor - requires the Necromantic Totem building in the city. 6 turn cast time. (exact times can be balanced). Causes all melee and mounted units in the stack to gain the Necromantic Armor promotion (+40% defencive strength)
Conjure Enchanted Sword - essentially "Enchant Sword" without Enchantment mana. 3 turn cast time to compensate. Gives Enchanted Sword promotion to melee and mounted units. (+20% strength)
Infuse Strength - requires Necromantic Totem, and Chosen of D'tesh or Council of Four. 8 turn cast time. Gives an additional promotion to melee and mounted units in stack giving +20% strength.
I don't have time to write all my ideas but this should be enough to get the right idea. This building would be very important to the D'tesh, should have a slightly-average increase in hammer cost because of the boost it provides to mounted units as well. I like that it also encourages early development of the arcane line (which is flavor appropriate for the D'tesh)
lemonjelly
Modding For Ethne
a) yeah, I've tried it.
b) Perhaps in the last level they should gain actual culture on that tile?
I like them, though I'd want one that actually increases the strength...
Infuse Strength - requires Necromantic Totem, and Chosen of D'tesh or Council of Four. 8 turn cast time. Gives an additional promotion to melee and mounted units in stack giving +1 Attack strength?
Swinkscalibur
Prince
^I was going to save that last idea for higher level spells. I was thinking of coming up with 6 - 10 spells covering increased strength, defence, mobility, and perhaps the cover, shock and mounted strength promotions. To balance this some promotions will overwrite others. It will most likely be impossible for a single unit to be equiped with all magical upgrades (I haven't decided exactly).
In case you didn't get it already, I figured I'd code this myself since its all XML anyway. If Valk wants to pick this up he can.
If anyone can think of art for the "Necromantic Totem" that would be appreciated. For now I'll have to use filler art.
In case you didn't get it already, I figured I'd code this myself since its all XML anyway. If Valk wants to pick this up he can.
If anyone can think of art for the "Necromantic Totem" that would be appreciated. For now I'll have to use filler art.
