Dutch Bug (or maybe I suk)

[Ryry]

Hey all,

Note this is all with the latest Mod, BtS.

Played a great game as Spain going for time or space race, really trying to re-create the whole Spanish Empire, and then keep it. Anyway, succeeded and decided to try the Dutch. I have gotten the UHV for the Dutch before (I think on the first try), but now I was going to try to recreate their Empire.

Though I was not going for the UHV, I figured I would try for the 1st two conditions to get the golden age. They are most territory on map by 1600, and first to found a city in Australia. Pretty easy, right? (Remember Dutch UP, navy can enter any civ's water, open borders or not).

I also set the goal of having a wonder by 1600 and being the 1st to get Liberalism. Well I did about 3 games up to 1600 and was way down in tech each time, got the Leaning Tower, but that is not the greatest wonder, never got Liberalism or the first UHV.

OK, figured it was a bad start (I'm not playing unlocked), so I totally restarted and got a great start. Germany had founded Copenhagen instead of Hamburg. I easily took it. Then Germany collapased after plague and I easily got Frankfurt. So on the "continent" everything was solid. Had a golden age and academies in two cities. 4 caravels with explorers out all over the world. Good open borders, etc.... Around 1500 tech was getting behind, so I gave up on Liberalism, but I figured I would at least get the 1st UHV.

At 1600 I had the whole world mapped except:
Jungle of Brazil, by scout was killed just as he entered the jungle. But I had all the territory around the Amazon mapped, including Argentina, and southern Brazil where there is no jungle.
China, could not get open borders. But I had Mongolia mapped and Siberia
About 1/2 of Alaska interior
Just a little bit of mid-east Africa

I had bought (not traded) maps with everyone I could. I had units in and around Australia, and I never saw any other civ's scouts there. I never saw any civ units in N. America except Axtec-- and England right at the end, but only on the east coast. No other civ's incl. Inca in the Amazon (I had units around the Amazon, and would have seen a scout enter. England settled South Africa partially, but I never saw their units in the mid-Africa jungle.

My point is that I was sure I had the 1st UHV locked up. I had almost the whole world mapped, and I was sure no one had Australia (at least the interior), the Amazon or the Western USA/Alaska/Yukon. But I didn't get it. It is possible that another civ somehow got more territory than me mapped, but I kind of doubt it.

Any ideas?

Also, what is your tech run up to 1600 for the Dutch now with the new mod? If I try to stay up in the tech race I can't get Astronomy until around 1600. If I bee-line Astronomy I get WAY behind. Any ideas?

Thanks!!!!

Ryry

 

[AnotherPacifist]

No idea about your map bug, but here's my tech tree:

meditation (want the extra hammers from Christian monastery and science)
civil service
philosophy (switch to pacifism and bureaucracy) (try to get Great Scientist)
paper
compass
optics
education (bulbed)
liberalism
free astronomy by 1500 at the latest
Scientific method or Constitution (depending on whether I have printing press)

then it's anything goes, but if I get a GP I bulb printing press, if I get a GM then I research banking for bulbing economics.

I can usually build either University of Sankore or Notre Dame, but I trade for aesthetics and literature fairly easily for Leaning Tower. I capture Mombasa and Quelimane with my 3 crossbowmen, and use my 2nd settler to build close to Zimbabwe (usually right on the gold). From there you can send settlers to Madagascar and the East Indies, while Amsterdam concentrates on the West Indies.

BTW, the best way to acquire maps is to vassalize either Khmer, or Inca (with your free troops it's easy), introduce them to a couple other civs, and they'll trade maps. Just give them an early tech and they'll be more than happy to sell their map to you.

 

[Ryry]

I capture Mombasa and Quelimane with my 3 crossbowmen, and use my 2nd settler to build close to Zimbabwe (usually right on the gold).

So you send them down in the Galleys right from the start?

BTW, the best way to acquire maps is to vassalize either Khmer, or Inca (with your free troops it's easy), introduce them to a couple other civs, and they'll trade maps. Just give them an early tech and they'll be more than happy to sell their map to you.

That sounds like a good idea. I usually get the free troops, but do not declare war. I run the troops to the Atlantic and pick them up and use them to base in S. Africa and Australia... or run them home if I have war problems on the continent. But probably better to vassal Inca. What about Aztec, in your experience:
Vassal (will they?)?
Take over?
or Just get the free troops? I usually get the troops then storm around N. America with them. They build up exp and get a lot of mapping done.

thanks!

Ryry

 

[blizzrd]

So you send them down in the Galleys right from the start?

Yep, that's what I recall doing - going off to found South Africa.

But probably better to vassal Inca. What about Aztec, in your experience:Vassal (will they?)?
Take over?

With either/both conqueror events, I tend to attack and take the capital, get a capitulation and then gift the capital back to them. As long as you have enough territory, they won't get out from under your foot. The maintenance costs are huge if you have a random city within the Aztec lands and it hurts your stability if you have their capital. Gift it back to them and you'll have a better economy and stability rating to show for it.

To save on gold per turn, I often gift some of the conquistador units to the native civ after capitulation - especially the siege units and pikes. The odd catapult can help the Aztecs to resist the Dog Warriors. Knights and crossbows are worth picking up though and transferring to Africa. I find that the Aztecs will map out North America for you if you gift a few units to them.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I take out the Aztecs completely (there's a spice north of Tampico, so I raze Tenochtitlan and keep Tampico, which is on the coast and much better for trade). If they built a 3rd city (e.g. on the deer) I keep them as vassals.

Incans I vassalize after capturing 1-2 cities.

Yes, the Dutch UP can allow your ships to bypass AIs without open borders (helps with getting to Jayakarta even without galleons).

 

[onedreamer]

So you send them down in the Galleys right from the start?

The galley can get all the way to the Hawaii, which will help you achieve the circumnavigation goal. Personally I found my second city at Lixus because it's a good spot for resources and for sending Indiamans towards America.

 

[Ryry]

OK, I followed your tech path and it is a good one. It is 1700's, I am the lead in tech with Euros though England and France are very close. I think Japan is the world leader in tech. My economy is a bit weak, but improving. I founded 3 cities around the same time, so we are dealing with that.

I sent galleys with 3 crossbows and 1 settler to S. Africa right away. Got plague by the time they were on The Cape, so I did not settle yet, went up Mozambique and attacked Quilmeme(sp?), it was 1 pop, so razed automatically. When plague ended, went back and settled one spot north of the gold. Also, Germany lost all troops in Frankfurt to the plague so I took that. Germany sued for peace without attacking, and then collapsed. Then I got Copenhagen from the independents.

Vassaled Aztec and Inca. Gifted some units to Aztec. Inca I didnt get the free units as I ran into an Incan fishing boat near cuba (!). Built 4 caravels and 5 explorers and went all over the freaking world. A distant civilization (I expect Japan) got Liberalism in 1400. By 1600 I had the whole world mapped except China and Alaska. No one was in or had been in Australia or S. America. I doubt anyone had mapped N. America. I still did not get the 1st UHV. Has to be a bug!!

1600 on...:
Russia took Berlin but then gifted it to me after the second plague. Founded Capetown too, city in Australia on the Northeast side between the fish and the gems/iron. Founded a city in the NW corner of S. America next to the Gems an 2 spots above the oil.... for the oil later.

I tried a novel thing, I built a fleet (3) of privateers and have been harassing the heck out of England. England has a few frigates, but they seem afraid to use them. I have not done blockade, just attack the lone galleon or caravel or fishing boat.

Ryry

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Why are people so war-hungry? I wait for Germany to collapse and Hamburg/Frankfurt to flip to me peacefully with intact infrastructure.

I think you may have had too many cities for good science. I have never lost the liberalism race to anybody when I play Netherlands (OK, I had 1 freakish game where Spain beat me to it, but that's because I stupidly traded philosophy and something else to them for gunpowder).

 

[Lone Wolf]

Inca I didnt get the free units as I ran into an Incan fishing boat near cuba

So, the AI sometimes are exploiting the system too...

 

[coko]

Anyone beaten people to America before? I was able to get Greece there once before anyone had spawned, and squated for them but my units disappeared I cried.

 

[chococid]

Anyone beaten people to America before? I was able to get Greece there once before anyone had spawned, and squated for them but my units disappeared I cried.

Greece going to America is probably doable, and probably not that bad of an idea at all, but I'm not sure Greece can handle it from a stability perspective.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I did it for my Greek spaceship game, but that was before the most recent patch with increased instability from squatting on other people's turf. Key is to make sure New Orleans and Chicago are built, and thus box the Americans in (otherwise their culture will overwhelm your cities')

 

[Ryry]

Why are people so war-hungry? I wait for Germany to collapse and Hamburg/Frankfurt to flip to me peacefully with intact infrastructure.

I think you may have had too many cities for good science. I have never lost the liberalism race to anybody when I play Netherlands (OK, I had 1 freakish game where Spain beat me to it, but that's because I stupidly traded philosophy and something else to them for gunpowder).

Probably you are right about waiting for the flip, that is probably a better idea.

About the Liberalism, it was 1400. I don't think you can get Liberalism by 1400 as Netherlands in the new mod. I had 100% science, and at that time I had only Amsterdam and the S. African city (Whitman?). I think it was just bad luck/bad start. Japan right now is 5 or 6 techs ahead of me (early 1700's), and I am the top Euro in techs. I think that is pretty rare. Usually as we get into the 1700's Japan is behind in tech, but unless they collapse they are going to be really strong. China has collapsed and Mongolia (as usual) is super backward. I would have quit already but I am interested to see what happens with Japan.

But probably they will just collapse.

Ryry

 

[Ryry]

I started again with AnotherPacifist's strategy:

Why are people so war-hungry? I wait for Germany to collapse and Hamburg/Frankfurt to flip to me peacefully with intact infrastructure.

Doesn't work.

If you don't push Germany to collapse they stick around forever. When they finally do collapse the cities will revolt, but not flip. I had tons of culture and Frankfurt and Copenhagen had no territory, totally surrounded by orange Dutch lands. No flip. Finally France or Russia or Vikings (or all three) will take the independent cities.

I did get Liberalism this time, though just by luck (ie: bad ai strategy): Japan had education well before me, but went for other techs rather than Liberalism. If Japan had gone for it, I never would have made it.

If you haven't played Netherlands since the latest mod, I suggest you give it a try.

Ryry