Dwarves and Gold

[Maniac]

Having a blanket GpC rate, does not make sense to me. On a small map and a Huge map, there should be a differance, as having 6 citis on a small map is a lot, but on a huge map is not many.

So? Wouldn't likewise having 3000 gold be a lot on small, but not many on huge?

 

[chocmushroom]

So? Wouldn't likewise having 3000 gold be a lot on small, but not many on huge?

HAY are you calling me an idiot here


HHHHmmmmm, well, looking at it that way, guess I am 1

Maybe i'm not stupid, just that my brain was not working today. I'll try to make my other commenets better in future

 

[Starship]

I like the gold hoarding effects. Do gems also play a similar role? Maybe the system could count each gem source as x gold to the average. They would hoard these too? Maybe as a penalty the Khazad won't/can't trade gems or gold?

I posted this earlier, but it was at the bottom of the page. Dwarves could covet other things that would play into this system. (ie gems, gold, mithril, etc..)

 

[AndrewDJ]

I played my first FfH game to completion last week, using the Khazad-Cultural Victory with 300+ turns left. Quite a game, Orthus to my north, the Red Dragon to the west. Mind you, I play on low difficulty levels, so this probably isn't typical, but by the end of the game I think I had 20,000+ gold socked away (the three golden ages helped a bit).

"It's not a Kingdom, It's a Giant Gold Pile," described the endgame very well.

I'll miss the higher level magic units in 0.14, (especially Fireballs and Meteors) but if the Khazad get compensated with enhanced disciple spell-casters, I can live with it . . . especially with vaults full o' gold.

 

[Good Sauce]

Apossible way to balance the upper level vaults: tie inflation rate to GpC in some way. (I dont know how the inflation rate is calculated, it might already do this)
This would require more and more sacrifices to get the better vaults, and also works from a realistic point of view as well. All other things being equal, as a nation increases its currency, it all becomes less valuable.
I think it would be very hard to balance though, i imagine a single percentage more or less could have huge effects...

 

[Silverkiss]

I think the Khazad should´t have a Financial leader anymore, now that they will have these Vaults. Whit Financial, they will get money too quickly and will probably be overpowered.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

Apossible way to balance the upper level vaults: tie inflation rate to GpC in some way. (I dont know how the inflation rate is calculated, it might already do this)
This would require more and more sacrifices to get the better vaults, and also works from a realistic point of view as well. All other things being equal, as a nation increases its currency, it all becomes less valuable.
I think it would be very hard to balance though, i imagine a single percentage more or less could have huge effects...

Gold value and what it can buy doesn't really change......the value of money does.........USA inflation only takes place because of the gold act of 1913..........where the US dollar became no longer directly backed by gold as "REAL MONEY" and to this day is why many nations won't accept U.S. Money but insist on Gold Coin...........a 20 dollar Gold Piece in the U.S.A. is guaranteed to cost you almost 600 dollars.......figure what old prices for horses or rifles used to be 150 years ago and compare prices now....it is similiar and relative.............that is why gold is used thus......and it is why even the United States of America still coins Gold......this is not a 101 economics but you won't get a Masters in Economics without knowing it..............it takes a little digging around but inflation is about the devalue of the artificial (non-gold) money in the world..........I can't really debate it because that kind of debate is useless but I will inform to those whom haven't yet learned without judgement and consider it something everyone who uses money should know.....Currency the Tech may lead to inflation if the Currency isn't gold coin.......anyway.....that is alot of info....to hand over.....and probrablily alot to consider....so I'll stop there.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

I think the Khazad should´t have a Financial leader anymore, now that they will have these Vaults. Whit Financial, they will get money too quickly and will probably be overpowered.

if they have lots of money but in dwarven fasion are unable to spend it shouldn't those that take their cities have a chance to claim part of the money! That changes the power issue into being a liablity if they can't spend the money according to scale or they suffer..........considering that angle it looks even to me. .......gold for bait and all!. .....maybe an escape chance for the gold because those that escape with the leader wouldn't leave the gold if they could help it!

 

[Kael]

if they have lots of money but in dwarven fasion are unable to spend it shouldn't those that take their cities have a chance to claim part of the money! That changes the power issue into being a liablity if they can't spend the money according to scale or they suffer..........considering that angle it looks even to me. .......gold for bait and all!. .....maybe an escape chance for the gold because those that escape with the leader wouldn't leave the gold if they could help it!

I really like this idea. We will see how it plays out (im pretty sure the amount of gold you get when you capture a city is based ont he nations wealth anyway so this may already be in effect). But we may add it in as an additional bonus for capturing dwarven cities.

 

[Good Sauce]

Gold value and what it can buy doesn't really change......the value of money does.........USA inflation only takes place because of the gold act of 1913..........where the US dollar became no longer directly backed by gold as "REAL MONEY" and to this day is why many nations won't accept U.S. Money but insist on Gold Coin...........a 20 dollar Gold Piece in the U.S.A. is guaranteed to cost you almost 600 dollars.......figure what old prices for horses or rifles used to be 150 years ago and compare prices now....it is similiar and relative.............that is why gold is used thus......and it is why even the United States of America still coins Gold......this is not a 101 economics but you won't get a Masters in Economics without knowing it..............it takes a little digging around but inflation is about the devalue of the artificial (non-gold) money in the world..........I can't really debate it because that kind of debate is useless but I will inform to those whom haven't yet learned without judgement and consider it something everyone who uses money should know.....Currency the Tech may lead to inflation if the Currency isn't gold coin.......anyway.....that is alot of info....to hand over.....and probrablily alot to consider....so I'll stop there.

price of gold in 1998 USD over abbout 30 years

The value of gold does change. It is true that in 1913 the US went to fiat currency and left the gold standard, giving us a steady inflation rate since then. However there was still inflation (and deflation) while we were still on the gold standard. Inflation/deflation will always occur in an economy whenever the sum value of that ecconomy's goods increases/decreases at a rate diffrent from that of the money supply. regardless of whether that money is gold, government backed dollars, or bad tupees.
Also i can't think of any nations (other than silly cuba, and crazy N. Korea) that wont accept US dollars, in fact the majority of nations use fiat currency.
edit: another tidbit about gold and inflation: in the 1600s when spain was looting gold from the aztecs and inca and carting it back home to europe the price of goods in spain went up 200-500%. money supply went up, but the value of goods did not. tada inflation.

Anyway. back to what's important... Dwarves!

I had another idea. It seems that the best strategy would be to cottage spam everywhere hills, grassland, whatever. This feels very un-dwarfy. My idea was to deny dwaves of building cottages completly, or limit them to only grow once to a hamlet. and instead have 'growing' mines in the same way as a cottage. ie.
t1 mine: +2 hammers
t2 mine: +2 hammers +1 coin
t3 mine: +2 hammers +3 coin
t4 mine +3 hammers +4coin
or something along those lines, the +3 hammers at the top tier might be a little too much.

 

[Maniac]

I really like this idea. We will see how it plays out (im pretty sure the amount of gold you get when you capture a city is based ont he nations wealth anyway so this may already be in effect). But we may add it in as an additional bonus for capturing dwarven cities.

Can't read the SDK, but XML suggests it's based on city size mainly.

		<DefineName>BASE_CAPTURE_GOLD</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>CAPTURE_GOLD_PER_POPULATION</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>CAPTURE_GOLD_RAND1</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>50</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>CAPTURE_GOLD_RAND2</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>50</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>CAPTURE_GOLD_MAX_TURNS</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>50</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

No clue what CAPTURE_GOLD_MAX_TURNS could mean though?

 

[Silverkiss]

It could be

1st Mine: +1 Hammer +1 Commerce
2nd Mine: +2 Hammer +1 Commerce
3rd Mine: +2 Hammer +2 Commerce
4th Mine: +3 Hammer +2 Commerce (+3 Commerce?)

I dunno, interesting idea.

 

[Maniac]

I had another idea. It seems that the best strategy would be to cottage spam everywhere hills, grassland, whatever. This feels very un-dwarfy. My idea was to deny dwaves of building cottages completly, or limit them to only grow once to a hamlet. and instead have 'growing' mines in the same way as a cottage. ie.
t1 mine: +2 hammers
t2 mine: +2 hammers +1 coin
t3 mine: +2 hammers +3 coin
t4 mine +3 hammers +4coin
or something along those lines, the +3 hammers at the top tier might be a little too much.

I agree. Mines are too weak compared to all the other terraforming options. Even when having the Kilmorph religion a cottage or windmill are often better, especially when playing with a Financial Dwarven leader.

 

[userOne]

it's good to remove cottages from dwarves, them some kind "un-dwarvy" fo me...
aboud developing mines... may be.
another idea, not to make mine levels, but give coin bonus for all production improvements, may be equal to production bonus (i.e. mine=2p2c, lumbermill=1p1c, etc...) as for me, for dwarves production IS money more production = more money

or may be more, what if set coin value of worked by the Khazad tile equal to hammer value? (it will be VERY lucky for them to have a plains hill mithrill mine in a city radius )

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

price of gold in 1998 USD over abbout 30 years

The value of gold does change. It is true that in 1913 the US went to fiat currency and left the gold standard, giving us a steady inflation rate since then. However there was still inflation (and deflation) while we were still on the gold standard. Inflation/deflation will always occur in an economy whenever the sum value of that ecconomy's goods increases/decreases at a rate diffrent from that of the money supply. regardless of whether that money is gold, government backed dollars, or bad tupees.
Also i can't think of any nations (other than silly cuba, and crazy N. Korea) that wont accept US dollars, in fact the majority of nations use fiat currency.
edit: another tidbit about gold and inflation: in the 1600s when spain was looting gold from the aztecs and inca and carting it back home to europe the price of goods in spain went up 200-500%. money supply went up, but the value of goods did not. tada inflation.

Anyway. back to what's important... Dwarves!

I had another idea. It seems that the best strategy would be to cottage spam everywhere hills, grassland, whatever. This feels very un-dwarfy. My idea was to deny dwaves of building cottages completly, or limit them to only grow once to a hamlet. and instead have 'growing' mines in the same way as a cottage. ie.
t1 mine: +2 hammers
t2 mine: +2 hammers +1 coin
t3 mine: +2 hammers +3 coin
t4 mine +3 hammers +4coin
or something along those lines, the +3 hammers at the top tier might be a little too much.

Perhaps my sources on Gold and history are not perfect

As for the 1600s..that also has alot to do with dealing with a people where the economy had nothing to do with gold (the Aztecs)whom are not extinct by the way......and the Spaniard whom had culturally just dealt with someone else whom had no cultural alignment with gold being a measurement for a unit of work..........It was obviosly devastating to their economy as the influx of gold lost meaning...

ULTIMATELY IT IS UNAVOIDABLE: We have to talk about utility and the best model for that discussion in relation to inflation that I have ever seen is a mathematical equasion that yes may be able to be used as a mechanic if all the factors are put in correctly........so here is the source I refer too..

..Fights,Games&Debates by Anatol Rapoport, copyright 1960 A Publication for Researchon Conflict Resolution, The Univesity of Michigan...Ann Arbor: the university of Michigan Press(specifically) Chapter IV CO-OPERATION AND EXPLOITATION.......however it breaks down utility and economics pretty fast and may be usuable here to avoid other probs. The whole work is a genuine read though....

..I also suggest a shorter read from a completely different angle to balance the nearly abstract mathematical system with a little anthropology.....

..Economics & Cultures: Foundations of Economic Anthropology by Richard R. Wilk, Indianna University, Copyright 1996 Westview Press

None of What I have covered is in these books however if you want an inflation mechanic or a better AI for conflict these two books will give you everything but the programming end you need including the mathematical approach which is what is needed for this type of project to be accurrate.

..If someone controls all the gold it has no meaning to the rest of the world because they will have to find something else to measure with...........that kindof change will do far more than cause inflation/deflation.......cultural values will abandon value distinctions and start with something else.........and completely reorganize the means of measure in theory but another question remains..........no one really knows why anyone went with gold in the first place......and yes there are many arguements on this but it is so much my house of cards vs your house of cards.

yeah sometimes an era change could change the worth of things dramatically especially when a unit of work changes value due to changes in
About Gold this much is known that it has had value longer than recorded history.......and it is a pretty good measure of middleground for worth.......the dark ages neutralized part of that and places where gold is meaningless neutralize that..........but if people agree on the measurement of a unit of work it can be a hard pressed arguement that leads to war about the worth of said amount of gold......

....a very interesting thing has happened amongst smelters though......in ther USA....specific too mostly among chinese immigrants whom did smelting.......they figured out how to capture gold out of the air during the smelting process and recapture the gold dust overlooked by others........when you took your gold in they would offer the coin making for free and regather what was lost in the vents and the dust and the mint residue....a coin more per dozen or two if the gold bringers where very miserly........this datas availble elsewhere......anyway the dwarven mining methods I hope they use steam because that is the best modern method of getting gold missed by everyone else!

 

[vorshlumpf]

150-199 GpC: Dwarven Vault (Stocked): +1 Happy
200-299 GpC: Dwarven Vault (Abundant): +10% Hammers, +2 Happy

In the game I just had, I noticed that when my gold was at 200, my capital (and only city) had just a Stocked vault. I purposely gained only 1 more gold for the next turn and that did the trick. I should have waited one turn with no income, though, because I noticed later that my second city didn't get a vault until the turn after it was created, so it my be a single turn delay situation. When I get back to the game, I'll see if that's the case.

Great idea, by the way! Now I just need to get dwarf workers on those mountains to make my empire feel right at home =)

- Niilo

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

Great idea, by the way! Now I just need to get dwarf workers on those mountains to make my empire feel right at home =)

- Niilo

Now that is what I'm thinking sounds proper!

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Seems odd that a Khazad city can be captured and the dwarves get a happiness/production/GPP bonus because of it. I don't think they'd be that much happier about having more gold for themselves if it meant that their kin were being occupied. Perhaps it could be based on the highest amount of cities that the Khazad have had?

 

[Kael]

Seems odd that a Khazad city can be captured and the dwarves get a happiness/production/GPP bonus because of it. I don't think they'd be that much happier about having more gold for themselves if it meant that their kin were being occupied. Perhaps it could be based on the highest amount of cities that the Khazad have had?

In all fairness they will suffer the same war weariness modifier that anyone does for losing a city (even if they are secretly delighted that they now each have a larger portion of the nations wealth).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Heh. Well, they are a neutral Civ.