Early Barb Activity

[TheHunger]

I recently played a game of Continents on Prince (marathon speed) that was split with 5 leaders on one island with the other two on the other, with me on the smaller island. What was very peculiar about this game was that around 3500 and 3300 BC I received notices that two civilizations had been destroyed, the two civs being the Vikings and the Romans. After winning the game through space I checked and found that those two civs had been destroyed by Barbarians.

Earlier today, I started another game, this time on Pangaea, but with the same difficulty and map size.



Note the time at which the Barb appeared and the fact that no civ had yet founded their second city. In fact, I spotted human Barbs as early as 3500 BC.

Now, IIRC human barbarians only begin to appear after a certain number of cities have been founded, in this case 7 for a standard map size. This is clearly not the case in this screenshot and in my previous example. I want to know if these two games are flukes, and if not, an explanation on when barbs start to appear.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sian]

human barbs from villages prehaps

 

[CivilizedTiger]

They only begin to get near cultural borders of civs after a number of cities, but they can emerge regardless of the number of cities, I think it's only a matter of turns passed.

 

[TheHunger]

They only begin to get near cultural borders of civs after a number of cities, but they can emerge regardless of the number of cities, I think it's only a matter of turns passed.

In the continents game those two civs were destroyed before anybody established their second city.

human barbs from villages prehaps

I didn't think of that: it sounds possible yet extremely fluky.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

There's also the question of whether you played with events on or not. There are some barbarian uprising events, and when they happen early, they're quite deadly. When I was still playing with events on, I saw the AI get destroyed by one of the barb events on two occasions.

 

[TheHunger]

There's also the question of whether you played with events on or not. There are some barbarian uprising events, and when they happen early, they're quite deadly. When I was still playing with events on, I saw the AI get destroyed by one of the barb events on two occasions.

I do play with events on actually. This likely explains the peculiar occurrence.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

If you still have the savegame file, you might see in your logs whether a barbarian uprising took place.

 

[automator]

My Civ experience is more pleasant now that I play with Barbs turned off. Nothing would make me mash a keyboard faster than "A massive uprising of Barbarian Horse Archers" showing up when I have no bronze.

 

[King Pluto]

My Civ experience is more pleasant now that I play with Barbs turned off. Nothing would make me mash a keyboard faster than "A massive uprising of Barbarian Horse Archers" showing up when I have no bronze.

You can turn off events and not barbs to get rid of that. Alternatively, you can change the event prob to zero.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It isn't just events. It's marathon. If you put "raging barbarians" on, it would explain this behavior coupled with marathon. With raging barbs, the city settlement restriction is lifted - human barbs enter in force the instant they appear, and there are more of them. While standard games allow warriors-only spawn busting, THIS isn't the format for that ----> get archery.

But the AI won't always get archery in time. Sometimes, it will have 1-3 warriors in the capitol, and get an influx of barb warriors just so. If the AI only has like 2 warriors and gets hit by ~5-6 barb warriors, there is a decent chance it dies. Even if it doesn't, it can get pillage-locked and overwhelmed eventually.

 

[Yamps]

Now, IIRC human barbarians only begin to appear after a certain number of cities have been founded, in this case 7 for a standard map size. This is clearly not the case in this screenshot and in my previous example. I want to know if these two games are flukes, and if not, an explanation on when barbs start to appear.

Thanks in advance.

The Guru isn't here anymore, but his words are remembered and bookmarked:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7673465&postcount=25

 

[Mantic0re]

@TMIT

I just realized maybe I'm making a mistake in how I defend against human barbs. I rarely fortify in a city unless I'm growing to the point I need the garrison for happy citizens (remember I'm playing on lower levels with a +happy bonus). Generally I keep my units floating(on a road) in between cities if they aren't on spawn bust duty so I can see more and possible get away with using less units to cover the same amount of territory.

In dire circumstances (aka spawnbust fail) I'll retreat to my cities.

Is my basic approach wrong...or are dire circumstances so much more common that units are in cities as a rule in your games?

 

[z0wb13]

Is my basic approach wrong...or are dire circumstances so much more common that units are in cities as a rule in your games?

warriors get a bonus against barbarians, so they can generally hold a city if you are just seeing archers and other warriors. axemen, clearly, are going to be a big problem without better units.

but as to your strategy, you seem to know the difference between fogbusting and spawnbusting, so as long as you aren't losing cities, you are probably doing okay. but to be clear, spawnbusting refers to the two tiles out from your units and borders where barbarians can not spawn, excepting random events. this is the best way to handle barbarians, not letting them ever appear. units in cities won't contribute to spawnbusting, you need your units out in the field. like this acsii:

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

the Units in the example are spawnbusting all of the Tiles, even though there is still probably a lot of fog left that you can't see into.

 

[morchuflex]

...spawnbusting refers to the two tiles out from your units and borders where barbarians can not spawn, excepting random events. (...)

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTTTTUTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

the Units in the example are spawnbusting all of the Tiles, even though there is still probably a lot of fog left that you can't see into.

Can you clarify that, please? I thought barbs could spawn in any tile obscured by FoW.

 

[Ghpstage]

Can you clarify that, please? I thought barbs could spawn in any tile obscured by FoW.

While its pretty much always been known that barbs can only spawn in fog, it has also long been known that barb units cannot spawn within 2 tiles of an existing unit. Barb cities can spawn in any fogged land tile however.

Spoiler :

To quote DanF5571

I'm not sure how many of you fellow civfanatics know about the GlobalDefines value MIN_BARBARIAN_STARTING_DISTANCE = 2 and already exploit it. It means that new barbarian units are not allowed to spawn within a 2 tile radius of ANY existing unit (including other barb units) on the map. This rule allows very efficient "fogbusting" on smaller landmasses.
...
So basically the range around a unit is just a BFC but with the corners as well? Does this count for barb galleys as well?

Yeah, maybe we call it BFS = big fat square or barb f....forbidding square . The rule applies to the infamous barb galleys as well --> it's nice to barb-bust in barb galley breeding areas with those 1-tile offshore islands using work boats which can be sent into the fishing grounds later. As mentioned above, the barb units (warriors/archers) stationed in spawned barb cities do the same job.

Can a barb city spawn where a unit couldn't?

Although MIN_BARBARIAN_CITY_STARTING_DISTANCE = MIN_BARBARIAN_STARTING_DISTANCE = 2, the rules are different. Barb cities can definitely spawn in a units BFS as long as no non-barb player has active vision for that tile. (That's also why the AI sends there GUARD_CITY units out to the chosen city sites.) It has happened to me before.

Even though barbs can't appear at the very beging of the game can you still pop the from huts?

It's not possible if you haven't founded your capital yet or if the hut is at a PlotDistance < 8 tiles away from your capital. So if you move your settler and your warrior diagonally away in opposite directions and found your capital first on turn 1 to achieve a great enough distance, you can then pop barbs from a hut that early. (Try it with random seed in a deity WB-scenario.)

Even though the entire continent is within 2 squares of a unit, a city can still spawn in a single tile of fog?

Yes, I recommend actual fogbusting in the juicy areas with high founding values (lot's of resources, often coastal) where you plan to get a city up via a settler. It's interesting to note that the likelihood for an early barb city spawning on your LHC island is rather low -- the game prefers to spawn them on the continents with the highest number of owned tiles, even if these places are much crappier than the sites on your continent.


Any unit can spawnbust; Workers, Settlers, Missionaries, Spies, Great People ...

Lots of barb based info can be found in Oyzars barb rule compilation thread (including the spilered quotes). Link.

 

[z0wb13]

Can you clarify that, please? I thought barbs could spawn in any tile obscured by FoW.

a common misconception. fogbusting would be stationing units so that there is no FoW, and consequently also serve as spawnbusting. but spawnbusting just means that all of your "safe" tiles are within two tiles of a unit or a border. even though you can't see into the tile, barbarians can't spawn that close to units or borders. so, imagine that earlier example as a solid landmass without hills; in order to fogbust, you would need:

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

here, every tile is illuminated, but it is overkill. you could spawnbust with roughly half as many units.

 

[Akkon888]

My Civ experience is more pleasant now that I play with Barbs turned off. Nothing would make me mash a keyboard faster than "A massive uprising of Barbarian Horse Archers" showing up when I have no bronze.

This is a perfect example of how the Mayan Holkan wins in the early game.

As for the FoW, let me get it straight. Is it that barbs cannot spawn within two tiles of a unit, even if there is a FoW present?

 

[Mantic0re]

Correct Akkon, barbarian units cannot spawn in the FoW if you've got a unit or border within two squares of that tile.

Barbarian Cities can appear in a FoW even if your unit is two tiles away.

I find generally that barb units won't pour out of those cities though so as long as your not running workers to the border the threat is minimal.

It seems that if you get enough units out so that all your available land is within two squares of a unit or your border...then you force barb cities to start popping. I don't know that this is true but I see this quite a bit. It can save you a settler some times if you don't care so much about poor placement in a late city.

 

[morchuflex]

a common misconception. fogbusting would be stationing units so that there is no FoW, and consequently also serve as spawnbusting. but spawnbusting just means that all of your "safe" tiles are within two tiles of a unit or a border. even though you can't see into the tile, barbarians can't spawn that close to units or borders. so, imagine that earlier example as a solid landmass without hills; in order to fogbust, you would need:

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

here, every tile is illuminated, but it is overkill. you could spawnbust with roughly half as many units.

Thanks a lot. That's very useful information.