Early exploration should be harder.

[damnyankees]

Exploring was usually done by small teams; it was never something that a civilization had to devote its entire energies to. A few scouts and caravels adequately represents the investment required for historical expeditions like Lewis & Clark's or Columbus' or Marco Polo's.

If you want it tougher, you can turn on Raging Barbarians.

I think you embedded the whole point right there - none of those expeditions started until the 14th century. Exploring happens too early and too easily in Civ.

 

[AriochIV]

I think you embedded the whole point right there - none of those expeditions started until the 14th century. Exploring happens too early and too easily in Civ.

Most early city-building civilizations didn't put a lot of effort into world exploration, but I suspect that was because of lack of interest rather than lack of some required technology. All you need for exploration is a group of determined explorers. Humans in pre-history had no trouble exploring and spreading humans settlements to every corner of the globe. The only significant barrier to such exploration was the ocean, and even that was overcome in some cases (see: Polynesia) at a very primitive level of technology.

 

[damnyankees]

Most early city-building civilizations didn't put a lot of effort into world exploration, but I suspect that was because of lack of interest rather than lack of some required technology. All you need for exploration is a group of determined explorers. Humans in pre-history had no trouble exploring and spreading humans settlements to every corner of the globe. The only significant barrier to such exploration was the ocean, and even that was overcome in some cases (see: Polynesia) at a very primitive level of technology.

True enough. I'm trying to think of a way to split the difference and make it work in Civ. I think at the very least, we should only see the status of tiles if we have lines of sight on them. What I mean is that if my scout goes 50 tiles away and finds Moscow, and then dies, my map should contain Moscow as it was when the scout saw it, and never update (either for terrain features, population, units, etc.). Make it so that to get current information about the world, even the world I've discovered already, I need to stay in contact. I shouldn't be able to see activity/changes in places I don't have units, embassies, spies or territory.

 

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

the AI is actually more aggressive against barbs than they used to be. They'll send out hunting packs to clear out the camps more often now.

As per the OP - raging barbs should help with that though. Don't "increase the difficulty level" as it'll curve back upon itself wrt barb difficulty. As you go up in diff level, the AI gets more units/etc to start with and will use their bonuses to kick out more early game units to kill the barbs. I think Emperor is the 'balanced point' for 'fair' barbs (not to mention that you get a bonus vs. barbs at every level below Deity).

Yeah I noticed the code for it last night when looking through the codebase but wasn't sure as to its efficacy and assumed that Barbs would still limit the AI more then no Barbs.

Eitherway you would know better then I given your extensive gameplay experience.

 

[aluelkdf]

I don't think exploring should be very difficult. It's not like the wilderness was crawling with barbarians. If you were walking across Europe in 3000 BC, chances are you could walk 100 miles without seeing a single person. And if you did run into people, it would probably be a few dozen hunter-gatherers who would be easy to detect and evade.

 

[damnyankees]

I don't think exploring should be very difficult. It's not like the wilderness was crawling with barbarians. If you were walking across Europe in 3000 BC, chances are you could walk 100 miles without seeing a single person. And if you did run into people, it would probably be a few dozen hunter-gatherers who would be easy to detect and evade.

This is true, but 100 miles is the equivalent to about 1 tile.

 

[MadHaxxor]

This actually ties into a much more basic idea I have that all units should always take damage when outside friendly territory.Period.

How the hell are you supposed to go to war? That wouldn't be fun at all. How are you supposed to take out barbarian encampments? how are you supposed to send trade routes to other civs? How are you supposed to MEET other civs? What about Giant Death Robots? You said all units, what would happen to them? Sorry, but that is a horrible idea

 

[MadHaxxor]

And if none of you like how exploring happens to early, then play on something that isn't pangea

 

[damnyankees]

How the hell are you supposed to go to war? That wouldn't be fun at all. How are you supposed to take out barbarian encampments? how are you supposed to send trade routes to other civs? How are you supposed to MEET other civs? What about Giant Death Robots? You said all units, what would happen to them? Sorry, but that is a horrible idea

You wouldn't be able to go to war too far away from your borders. That's the point. It would be hard.

Trade units obviously wouldn't take any damage at all. I meant military units.

I'm not saying a ton of damage - something like 1 damage per turn per tile away from your borders.

 

[aluelkdf]

This is true, but 100 miles is the equivalent to about 1 tile.

True, if somebody walked from Spain to Russia 5,000 years ago I'm sure they would run into many people and face many perilous situations.

 

[tomplum68]

This system would also allow more SP experimentation in the exploration tree. Maybe a policy which cuts down on the damage taken per tile. Maybe a policy for increasing the sight specifically in oceans. Great admirals would have special skills relating to crossing ocean tiles or seeing inland from ocean tiles. Maybe a policy unlocking a unique unit, a scoutship, which has double movement in ocean tiles. I don't know, just spitballing.

Kind of off topic but the idea of great admirals and generals granting extended sight should be implemented. It makes sense and would be very useful.

 

[Wodan]

I've always thought with the next Civ it would be good to have both strategic and tactical levels to the game. Not tactical in the sense that you can do individual battles in detail (that's another discussion), but like this:

• a strategic turn would function much like civ currently does
• but within each strategic turn, is a loop of tactical turns
• So, units have many rounds of movement all within the same strategic turn; in the ancient era, this could be, say, 3; each age thereafter it could increase by 1 (medieval = 4, renaissance = 5, modern = 6)
• in effect, you could move a unit from one side of your empire to another, all in the same strategic turn

 

[Babri]

Europa Universalis uses attrition when entering unexplored territory & supply ranges to limit exploration & conquest. I think the latter concept can be used in civ and it would make exploration & warfare difficult and interesting as well, needing you to have a good supply chain/range to support your explorers/armies.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

How the hell are you supposed to go to war? That wouldn't be fun at all. How are you supposed to take out barbarian encampments? how are you supposed to send trade routes to other civs? How are you supposed to MEET other civs? What about Giant Death Robots? You said all units, what would happen to them? Sorry, but that is a horrible idea

You take a small amount each turn (say ~5) every turn you end outside of friendly territory...( maybe 10 if it is 'hostile' terrain.. but that might be to complicated)

 

[MarshalN]

And maybe some units are immune to that, like scouts.

Right now your early warrior (or archer!) can go to the other side of the continent and fight off barbarians on its own. That's not very realistic if you're still in the ancient era. Scouts should be able to go far, but should have trouble fighting, as they do now.

 

[Staal]

Only if you ignore the fact that just about all of humanity migrated out of there starting a few tens of thousands of years ago...

Why do people always feel the need to confuse migrations that took place over thousands of years by hunter gatherer groups to exploration and knowledge of far off lands by agricultural-based civilizations (as this thread is obviously referring to)? You can't ignore something if it just isn't relevant.

 

[Draco84]

I would like to see the world littered with the old animals, jaguars and bears and lions that couldn't enter your borders. This would make scouting much more difficult yet any real army would still have no trouble at all.

It would also incentive you to expand your borders between cities to keep the barbarian animals out.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I would like to see the world littered with the old animals, jaguars and bears and lions that couldn't enter your borders. This would make scouting much more difficult yet any real army would still have no trouble at all.

It would also incentive you to expand your borders between cities to keep the barbarian animals out.

attrition would be much better

Hostile Terrain: 10 hp/turn (tundra, desert, jungle, snow, marsh)
Non Hostile: 5 hp/turn (grassland, plains, forest, floodplains, oasis)

1/2 for scouts?

reduced by 1/era (neutral territory, full strength in enemy territory)

less complicated than barb animals and fair to scouts.

 

[Draco84]

Attrition would never work, how would I go about conquering someone or even a barb hut? what if it takes me 10 turns just to setup my troops, each of my guys would be one shot and withdrawing from a was would essentially sacrifice your troops as they can't get home in time.

Animals work great for this reason, all they do are hinder scouts, worked fine in Civ4. scouting was easy, but you could lose them occasionally depending where you ended your turn.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Attrition would never work, how would I go about conquering someone or even a barb hut? what if it takes me 10 turns just to setup my troops, each of my guys would be one shot and withdrawing from a was would essentially sacrifice your troops as they can't get home in time.

Animals work great for this reason, all they do are hinder scouts, worked fine in Civ4. scouting was easy, but you could lose them occasionally depending where you ended your turn.

Your troops woud heal while being setup (the ones in position)

and if it is only 5 hp per turn, then a 25 hp unit (badly wounded still has 5 turns to reach friendly territory.. (or at least area out of the war zone, where they can heal faster than they take damage)