Early game help

[podraza]

First, this forum is great. I received some good advice on my whipping problem. Thanks to all who helped with that.

I've got a number of other misc. questions and I thought I'd just throw them out there. For context, I am somewhere in between experienced and noobish. I play on Prince, and sometimes win.

1. What should influence my decision as to early tech research? The major problem I grapple with is trying to decide whether to research all/most of the early techs myself or to beeline for something. It seems like building up a basic infrastructure is impossible if you ignore those early basics, wheel, pottery, bronzeworking, iron working, animal husbandry, archery, etc so I tend to research all of them myself. Now granted, I could pick up these techs for free if I beelined and traded, but I'd have to wait around on some very important things, namely improving various resource tiles, building early units, etc. Obviously there is no easy answer. Ideas?

2. How should I weigh the pros and cons of open border agreements at the start of the game? The biggest con seems to me that you allow the enemy to explore areas you have blocked off, and this allows him to plop himself down and snag resources you were saving for yourself. Of course, you COULD do the same thing right back, but I never do that, I don't like having cities detached from my empire, the AI doesn't seem to care. The biggest pro is some increased friendliness. I'm leaning towards a policy of keeping the borders closed to everyone unless and until I want to explore their land for pre-war recon purposes. This is only until I've secured what land I want to secure. Then I'll open the borders for diplomatic gains. Sound good?

3. I only recently starting slaving, and I abused it to my own detriment, going buck wild. I ended up broke all the time. The good people on this forum advised against it, that instead I should use it only for certain buildings. Well, what are those? I know which buildings to build, I know about specialization and how that works. But which to whip? Assume a non emergency situation.

4. Are markets and grocers as low value as I think they are? If they boost gold only, and if gold is always running 30% or less, then that isn't nearly the value that a library or university is. Correct? I should place these buildings as low priorities. Correct?

5. I am currently playing every game with the same initial build order. Worker, worker, unit, settler. I am chopping non-stop until I get these out or run out of woods in the fat X. I know there is some room for debate as to the best way to start, but is there anything terribly wrong with this order?

Thanks!

 

[MrCynical]

1)Bronze working is almost invaribly the best first tech, granting slavery, chop rushing, and defense if you have copper. Beyond that, if you don't have copper you'll want iron working and animal husbandry to look for horses and iron. Only as an absolute last resort, if you're missing all of the above resources should you bother with archery.

Beyond that, look at what resources you have, and go for the techs to make use of them. If you aren't coastal, you can safely leave the fishing/sailing line, and so on. If you want to found a religion, or pick up one of the early wonders, you'll be looking at getting masonry and the religious tech line (mysticim, polytheism, monotheism etc). At high levels though, where your chances at wonders and religions are very slim anyway, you can safely ignore this line.

Once you've got those of the above you want, you're best off beelining for Alphabet, since even at the highest difficulties you can be the AI there. Then you can generally trade it to several civs for all the earlier technologies you're missing.

2)You're on basically the right lines here. Unless you're sealing off land with your borders, you're better off opening them. This allows trade routes and gives a diplomatic bonus, with no real penalty against an AI since they're too stupid to do anything useful with information about your land.

3)Generally early buildings give the most benefit from being whipped. The library, forge and lighthouse are fairly obvious candidates.

4)For a cottage economy that will generally be running with a high sicence rate, the gold boosting improvements are less valuable than the science boosters. The science ones should therefore come first except in your gold specialized city, or if your science rate has dropped a lot.

5)There's nothing obviously wrong with it.

 

[cabert]

First, this forum is great. I received some good advice on my whipping problem. Thanks to all who helped with that.

I've got a number of other misc. questions and I thought I'd just throw them out there. For context, I am somewhere in between experienced and noobish. I play on Prince, and sometimes win.

I'll do my best, but your questions have the noobish perfume of one who doesn't see that cIV is really a strategy game. Not wanting to rain on your parade, but it's not the tricks that make the winning, it's the strategy.
On most of your questions, there is only one answer : "it depends".
I strongly advise you to read through some SG games, or some GotM spoilers.
Much better material for learning than cold infos.

1. What should influence my decision as to early tech research? The major problem I grapple with is trying to decide whether to research all/most of the early techs myself or to beeline for something. It seems like building up a basic infrastructure is impossible if you ignore those early basics, wheel, pottery, bronzeworking, iron working, animal husbandry, archery, etc so I tend to research all of them myself. Now granted, I could pick up these techs for free if I beelined and traded, but I'd have to wait around on some very important things, namely improving various resource tiles, building early units, etc. Obviously there is no easy answer. Ideas?

Research what you need now, trade for what you can afford to wait for.
If you've got a gold ressource in your capital's fat cross, you need mining fast+it opens the way to BW.
On the other hand, if you have deers and fur+cows, you're going to grow faster/better with hunting then AH.
BW is a must in most games, but sometimes, it could be better to research the most needed worker techs first.

2. How should I weigh the pros and cons of open border agreements at the start of the game? The biggest con seems to me that you allow the enemy to explore areas you have blocked off, and this allows him to plop himself down and snag resources you were saving for yourself. Of course, you COULD do the same thing right back, but I never do that, I don't like having cities detached from my empire, the AI doesn't seem to care. The biggest pro is some increased friendliness. I'm leaning towards a policy of keeping the borders closed to everyone unless and until I want to explore their land for pre-war recon purposes. This is only until I've secured what land I want to secure. Then I'll open the borders for diplomatic gains. Sound good?

well, it's one way to do it
If you want foreign religions to enter your territory, you need open borders too + if you want to spread yours, you need it too + when there are roads to foreign cities, you need open borders for foreign trade routes (rivers act as roads for this).
I very much open borders with everyone except my early target.

3. I only recently starting slaving, and I abused it to my own detriment, going buck wild. I ended up broke all the time. The good people on this forum advised against it, that instead I should use it only for certain buildings. Well, what are those? I know which buildings to build, I know about specialization and how that works. But which to whip? Assume a non emergency situation.

On building deserves the whip in almost every situation, it's the granary.
Other than that, play your traits, follow your plan.
No need to rush tons of units if you're not going to war. No need to rush too many buildings if you're going for conquest.

4. Are markets and grocers as low value as I think they are? If they boost gold only, and if gold is always running 30% or less, then that isn't nearly the value that a library or university is. Correct? I should place these buildings as low priorities. Correct?

correct but :
- shrine cities have gold coming in even at 0% gold, so it's an exception.
- you need markets if you want to run merchants specialists (except running caste system)
- markets also give a happiness bonus (very welcomed when you only have fur or ivory) and grocers give a health bonus, at a time when you often need it.
So priority can change to face different situations (happiness cap is a strong early limitation!).
Plus i often run at 40% gold or more.

5. I am currently playing every game with the same initial build order. Worker, worker, unit, settler. I am chopping non-stop until I get these out or run out of woods in the fat X. I know there is some room for debate as to the best way to start, but is there anything terribly wrong with this order?

playing each game with the same build order must be boring, isn't it?
It's the same thing as slavery : worker prevents growth, which isn't very bad if you only have bad tiles to work, but
- if you've got some high food option, growth would be fast (just one warrior could be produced before the worker)
- if you have no good worker's tasks techs, it's pointless to build a worker
- you're going to need the warrior for fogbusting in most situations

 

[carl corey]

1. Well, it depends a lot on the terrain and the resources available. Bronze Working is pretty much a must for chopping and slavery and also to get the copper. Research it early and you'll have an idea of where to place your second city and also once you connect the copper you can get out some good anti-barb Axemen and prepare your first war. If no copper is present you might want to go for Animal Husbandry to get Chariots. But if you have copper, and there are no animal resources nearby then you can let AH for later.

Going the religious way means Mysticism for Stonehenge - presumably you'll already have this as a starting tech if you want to grab a religion - and you'll go towards Priesthood for the Oracle sooner than in other cases.

Do you have elephants? Forget the Alphabet, get Hunting and Construction and watch your enemies die before your War Elephants and Catapults.

If nothing about the map seems to give you an early advantage I go for the Alphabet & Literature for tech trading (don't trade Alphabet away! keep the monopoly!) and the Great Library. An Oracle -> Metal Casting slingshot can provide you with a very good trading tech for which you can get most of the early techs.

There are most probably other ways to go early on, I've just outlined a few.

2. If you want to block an area then yeah, don't give the AIs open borders. Notice however that this is one of the few early diplomatic modifiers, so getting an AI to be pleased may be more important than grabbing a city. Maybe you can give open borders to the far away AIs, since they won't come in your back yard anyway?

3. I guess whipping is highly dependent on the amount of food you have. If, for example, you have a city surrounded by plain tiles you can cottage part of them and farm the rest. This way, after you whip you switch to farms and grow back fast, then switch to working the cottages again. Whipping in a low food city isn't probably going to do you much good, since it will take too much time to get back to size. You can still whip early on, when the recovery time is small, but later let them grow.

4. Yeah, don't build those everywhere. In a highly cottaged city they are pretty useful, but there's not much to be gained from them in a production city. Also, you might consider building them for the health/happiness bonuses, but that's very context related.

5. Not terribly wrong, no. I used to go worker-worker-settler myself. I changed because it seemed like letting the city grow in between was a better idea. I haven't bothered to do the math though. Anyway, here are some alternatives: Warrior (Scout if possible) until size 2 - Worker (whip if possible) - complete the Warrior if not finished, then Warrior/Barracks/Stonehenge until size 3-4 - Settler (whipped when possible). Variations include Workboats if I have seafood, or going Stonehenge, then Worker a little before whipping becomes available if I'm on the religious path. This is because most of the time the Worker will have nothing to do while I research Meditation/Poly and Priesthood, so it's not like I need it anyway.

 

[podraza]

Great help guys, thanks!

Noobish perfume? I like that.

Yeah, I suppose I'm wearing some of that. But really, I've come far enough to realize that this game is situational, that you exploit what you've got, and that you never have it all.

That being said, one thing I know I'm lacking is the sheer experience of having played many many games, to see how the theories work out in practice. That's what you guys are for, having done the grunt work for me.

So, next round of questions

1. I understand that techs associated with resources I have are more important than techs associated with resources I don't have, and that this should guide much of my early tech decisions. But what are the "must have" techs, if any? The consensus seems to be that Bronzeworking is must have. What about Pottery for cottages? Wheel for roads? Apparantly archery for archers is not necessary. That makes sense, as Ax are probably a good substitute. Could we make a short list of "must have" techs? Or is that still a noobish question? (we can call them "should have" for accuracy if you'd like)

2. MrCynical mentioned my "gold specialized" city. Is this different from my science specialized city? I tend to play cottage economy, so my science mostly comes from commerce tiles anyway. I generally make cities that play both roles, with science boosting and gold boosting buildings, although maybe that has been a mistake. I suppose a gold specialized city would have wall street, all of the gold boosting buildings and gold producing specialists? Is there any way to make just one city 100% gold? I don't think so, but maybe there is something I don't know. If not, then isn't a gold specialist city a wasted opportunity to run a much stronger science city given the 70%-30% split?

 

[MrCynical]

1) Bronze working, the wheel, pottery (for granaries as well as cottages) and writing are the only ones I can think of at the moment I would always get before Alphabet, though Agriculture and animal husbandry will be there is almost every game as well.

2)While in a cottage economy the primary source of gold is commerce, there are other sources. The most common other one is a religious shrine, which will generate gold regardless of where your science sliders are set. Hence Wall Street is usually more effective there (assuming you're running a high science rate most of the time), than it would be in a generic commerce city. You could add some merchant specialists for additional effect, but just the shrine/wall street combination works very well.

 

[cabert]

Great help guys, thanks!

you're welcome

Noobish perfume? I like that.
Yeah, I suppose I'm wearing some of that. But really, I've come far enough to realize that this game is situational, that you exploit what you've got, and that you never have it all.

That was my main point. Good thing that you get it.
I was going a bit further, though.
It's not only situational. It's also strategical. Going for a military tech is always good, but it's not that urgent if you aim for a big culture boost early = religion race.

That being said, one thing I know I'm lacking is the sheer experience of having played many many games, to see how the theories work out in practice. That's what you guys are for, having done the grunt work for me.

hum
Are you aware that other people in the world have their own lives, even when you're not there?

1. I understand that techs associated with resources I have are more important than techs associated with resources I don't have, and that this should guide much of my early tech decisions. But what are the "must have" techs, if any? The consensus seems to be that Bronzeworking is must have. What about Pottery for cottages? Wheel for roads? Apparantly archery for archers is not necessary. That makes sense, as Ax are probably a good substitute. Could we make a short list of "must have" techs? Or is that still a noobish question? (we can call them "should have" for accuracy if you'd like)

Don't be offended by the noobish thing. It's just a fact. That's why you ask those questions, so there is no point hiding it.
most popular early techs are :
- mining/BW
- pottery
- wheel (because without roads, you cannot connect the copper/the other ressources!)
then if you want to trade other techs, you need alphabet (requiring writing).

The fun in the game is when you can escape this "universal toolbag" (like running for a religion, or going straight for construction).

2. MrCynical mentioned my "gold specialized" city. Is this different from my science specialized city? I tend to play cottage economy, so my science mostly comes from commerce tiles anyway. I generally make cities that play both roles, with science boosting and gold boosting buildings, although maybe that has been a mistake. I suppose a gold specialized city would have wall street, all of the gold boosting buildings and gold producing specialists? Is there any way to make just one city 100% gold? I don't think so, but maybe there is something I don't know. If not, then isn't a gold specialist city a wasted opportunity to run a much stronger science city given the 70%-30% split?

Gold city is not an early game question. It's a question you need to answer only when you start building national wonders (leaving room for wall street in the wanabee gold city).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

1. I understand that techs associated with resources I have are more important than techs associated with resources I don't have, and that this should guide much of my early tech decisions. But what are the "must have" techs, if any?

Well, first try the other way around. You can launch a space ship without Polytheism, Monotheism, Priesthood, Monarchy, Theology, Divine Right, Alphabet, Literature, Drama, Music, Military Tradition, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Horseback Riding, Liberalism, Communism, Democracy, Fascism, etc. So none of these techs are must have - but they are going to make your life a lot easier.

OK, here's another list - the opening tech order for one of the first well played games I "saw"; this list includes hut pops and lightbulbing:

• Meditation
• Masonry
• Polytheism
• Monotheism
• Hunting
• Animal Husbandry
• Mining
• Archery
• The Wheel
• Bronze Working
• Priesthood
• Writing
• Theology
• Agriculture
• Code of Laws
• Pottery
• Sailing
• Iron Working

That said, in terms of "high priority tech in many different kinds of games", it looks to me as though you have identified the top two, and there isn't a good candidate for a third - I'd probably nominate one of Wheel (important, but I never research it as soon as it is available), Alphabet, Literature, with no great conviction.

2. MrCynical mentioned my "gold specialized" city. Is this different from my science specialized city?

Yes.

Slightly longer answer: there are other ways to play, where you focus the attention of creating gold (or science) in one location, and run the commerce sliders in the other direction.

 

[Iblis]

Can I add an additional question to the list of already invaluable ones listed? For Oxford Uni and Wall Street you need a certain number of universities and banks (which in turn require libraries/markets) built already, so in terms of dismissing gold cities as not important until later in the game surely you need to have thought about this a bit beforehand otherwise you'll have no banks to build WS. If you're going to properly specialise your economy you're going to need both OU and WS aren't you? Or am I missing something?

 

[carl corey]

Wheel (important, but I never research it as soon as it is available)

Well, this seems pretty important to me if I want to link that copper really fast so that my first units are Axemen and I don't waste my hammers on warriors.

Iblis, I'm pretty sure banks don't require markets. Universities do indeed require libraries. By the time you get them though you're most probably going to have a pretty big empire, so having enough cities with libraries isn't going to be such a problem. Libraries are cheap, give you both culture and a research boost, so I build a lot of them anyway. Just choose your best science cities and build universities in them when they become available.

Wall Street is another question. I find out I'm still planning badly for it and don't manage to start building it the moment it becomes available. But most probably your capital needs a bank, if you have a shrine city, definitely that one (most of the time it's also the WS city), and any capitals you take from AIs are usually worthy of a bank. That leaves you with only a few additional banks to place, you might even put one down in the highest production city just to get the WS available faster.

 

[Pogel]

There are two strategies for building the requisites for wonders.

1) Build them at the cities that will most benefit them

2) Build them at the cities that will build them quickest

Which strategy you favour depends on the circumstances of the game. Generally, I'll look to build them where they will do some good, but if I need 3 banks to get Wall Street up and running in a cash-cow holy city I won't necessarily wait until they can be built in a tertiary commerce city - I'll often crank out a bank or two in a production city instead.

 

[cabert]

you need the wheel for pottery anyway

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Well, this seems pretty important to me if I want to link that copper really fast so that my first units are Axemen and I don't waste my hammers on warriors.

I sympathise. But note that Wheel is available immediately, yet you are already securing two techs first (mining + bronzeworking), and if the copper doesn't pop you still don't need wheel, nor do you need it if you are already trade route connected to it (river, under a city, etc). Hooking up a (one) strategic resource, and the pre-requisite factor is about all early wheel buys you. After that, I'm usually too busy chopping and improving to get roads down (unless I've really screwed up my teching, and am building roads with my worker in lieu of accomplishing anything useful).

Put a different way, if I pop BW or Pottery from a hut, I probably start using them at once, rather than continuing with the old plan. If the hut has wheels, though enh - you've saved me some research that I'll need to do, but I don't expect to use it for anything right now.

It's important (faster movement, connecting cities, connecting resources, chariots) without being particularly urgent (except of course that it is a pre-req, but if we're going to worry about that, then mining is more important than BW, which isn't helpful).

 

[Wlauzon]

At least for the way I play, Bronze Working and Pottery are early must haves, and I beeline for those. After that, it gets pretty situational.

I try to get libraries asap, but if I have some jerk like Alex or the Khan's next door, I might go for military tech first.

As far as religion goes, that varies a lot. Dependinng on who I am playing, sometimes I will try to get all that I can, other times I may never get any - or anything inbetween.

There are so many variables in this game - map, leader traits, level, and other options - there is no one best strategy for all. So what I have been doing since I re-started playing 3 weeks ago is just trying all kinds of different strategies. I learn a little bit from each one, finally got smart enough where I can usually survive at Prince level.

There are people that can win at much higher levels, but that seems to involve a ton of micro managing, which is something I just can't get really excited about.

 

[Wlauzon]

There are two strategies for building the requisites for wonders.

1) Build them at the cities that will most benefit them

2) Build them at the cities that will build them quickest

Which strategy you favour depends on the circumstances of the game. Generally, I'll look to build them where they will do some good, but if I need 3 banks to get Wall Street up and running in a cash-cow holy city I won't necessarily wait until they can be built in a tertiary commerce city - I'll often crank out a bank or two in a production city instead.

One advantage to having a "Wonder City", where most wonders are built, is that many of them have multipliers upon multipliers. You can get some pretty fantastic research going with the right improvements and wonders.